Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Response to Genesis 12:3  (Read 2305 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mark 79

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 9573
  • Reputation: +6261/-940
  • Gender: Male
Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2019, 04:24:25 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • If a person hasn't accepted Jesus and that his blood sacrifice covers our sin in the eyes of God the Father, unfortunately then he is doomed. If he is saved but sinned, then he is covered by the blood and therefore forgiven. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast". This means that God's gift of salvation is a gift, and cannot be taken back, also we did not do anything to earn it, work for it. It can only be had by faith that his blood covers you in front of God.

    The standard straw man of Protestant "once saved" heresy. God does not "take back" the merits of His Propitiation for our sons, but MANY reject His gift by their unforgiven/unrepented sins.

    His "Bible" and "concordances" seem to be missing several dozen verses:

    “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?” James 2:20-21

    “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 7:21

    “…But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matthew 19:17

    “And when he was gone forth into the way, a certain man running up and kneeling before him, asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may receive life everlasting?  And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.  Thou knowest the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, bear not false witness, do no fraud, honour thy father and mother.  But he answering, said to him: Master, all these things I have observed from my youth. And Jesus looking on him, loved him, and said to him: One thing is wanting unto thee: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Mark 10:17-21

    “And a certain ruler asked him, saying: Good master, what shall I do to possess everlasting life?  And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone.  Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill: Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not bear false witness: Honour thy father and mother.  Who said: All these things have I kept from my youth.  Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee: sell all whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.” Luke 18:18-22

    “Amen, amen I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.” John 8:51

    “You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you.” John 15:14

    “Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God.  And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” John 5:28-29

    “For in Christ Jesus neither circuмcision availeth any thing, nor uncircuмcision: but faith that worketh by charity.” Galatians 5:6

    “…and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.” 1 Corinthians 13:2

    “Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation”  Phillipians 2:12

    “But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13

    “What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.” James 2:14-18

    “…Who will render to every man according to his works.” Romans 2:6

    “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Romans 2:13

    “Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice.” Romans 6:16

    “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.  For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.… For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God.  And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.” Romans 8:12-17

    “For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee.  See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” Romans 11:21-22

    “And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation.” Hebrews 5:9

    “Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God.” Hebrews 12:14

    “Take heed to thyself and to doctrine: be earnest in them. For in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee.” 1 Timothy 4:16

    “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will He render to every man according to his works.”  Matthew 16:27

    “For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.”  2 Corinthians 5:10

    “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Apocalypse 20:12

    “There shall not enter into it [Heaven] any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.” Apocalypse 21:27

    The unrighteous are condemned for failing to do good deeds. Matthew 25:31-46

    “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was. But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty, and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; this man shall be blessed in his deed. And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man’ s religion is vain. Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one’s self unspotted from this world.” James 1:22-27

    “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21

    “Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just.” 1 John 3:7

    Whatever your opinion of the Dimond brothers, they do an excellent job of exposing the Protestant foolishness on justification:

    Docuмentary: Protestantism's Big Justification Lie

    a careful exposition of how the Protestant doctrine of justification is not only contradicted by Scripture,
    but is also self-contradictory




    Online Bonaventure

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1242
    • Reputation: +789/-272
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #31 on: November 26, 2019, 04:29:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • His "Bible" and "concordances" seem to be missing several dozen verses:

    “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?” James 2:20-21

    Was not the Book of James one of the books the arch-heretic Luther threw out? 


    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9573
    • Reputation: +6261/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #32 on: November 26, 2019, 04:33:26 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1. They teach their adherents to pray to the saints, to Mary (Jesus' mother), and to disregard the following: Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) Jesus also told his faithful apostles: “Most truly I say to you, If you ask the Father for anything he will give it to you in my name.”—John 16:23.

    There is only one mediator between man and God, . . . Jesus. Not Mary, not Peter, not Jude, not Paul, . . . Jesus and Him alone.

    Extensive scriptural proof texts honoring Mary and praying for the intercession of the Angels and Saints: http://judaism.is/hating-mary.html

    Mimicking the тαℓмυdic hatred of the Mother of God (see Jesus in the тαℓмυd), the most Biblically ignorant and vicious of Protestants insist that Catholics “worship” the Blessed Virgin Mary. We do not worship her, we honor her exactly as the Bible honors Mary in Luke 1:26-55, the source of her titles, our “Hail Mary,” and Magnificat:
     
    “And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,  To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin' s name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.  Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.  And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.  And of his kingdom there shall be no end.  And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?  And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:  Because no word shall be impossible with God.  And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.  And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda.  And she entered into the house of Zachary, and saluted Elizabeth. And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:  And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.  And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?  For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.  And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.
     
    “And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.  And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.  Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.  And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.   He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.   He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.   He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:   As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.”

    Psalms prefigure Mary as the “house” of the Lord (like the Ark), the “daughter of the King” (to be honored). Don’t be confused by the differences in Catholic and Protestant Psalm numbering.



    There are other such examples.



    See also: Can Mary's Sinlessness Be Defended?
    http://bellofchurch.blogspot.com/2015/12/can-marys-sinlessness-be-defended.html
    Archetypes and scriptural support for the Immaculate Conception of Mary
    http://www.ccel.org/node/7738
    entry for “Immaculate Conception,” Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
    the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX
    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm
     
    The Bible and Apostolic Tradition both teach us that Mary and the Saints are our family:



    Do you have pictures of your family?  We do.
    Do you worship "graven images" of your mother?  Neither do we.
     
    Dulia
     
    (Greek doulia; Latin servitus), a theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints, while latria means worship given to God alone, and hyperdulia the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin MarySt. Augustine (City of God X.2) distinguishes two kinds of servitus: “one which is due to men . . . which in Greek is called dulia; the other, latria, which is the service pertaining to the worship of God.” St. Thomas (II-II:103:3) bases the distinction on the difference between God’s supreme dominion and that which one man may exercise over another. Catholic theologians insist that the difference is one of kind and not merely of degree; dulia and latria being as far apart as are the creature and the Creator. Leibniz, though a Protestant, recognizes the “discrimen infinitum atque immensum between the honour which is due to God and that which is shown to the saints, the one being called by theologians, after Augustine's example, latria, the other dulia”; and he further declares that this difference should “not only be inculcated in the minds of hearers and learners, but should also be manifested as far as possible by outward signs” (Syst. theol., p. 184). A further distinction is made between dulia in the absolute sense, the honour paid to persons, and dulia in the relative sense, the honour paid to inanimate objects, such as images and relics. With regard to the saintsdulia includes veneration and invocation; the former being the honour paid directly to them, the latter having primarily in view the petitioner's advantage. More detailed explanation of dulia and the reasons for which it is shown to persons or things will be found in the articles IMAGESRELICSSAINTS. See also ADORATION and WORSHIP.
     
    from the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition
     
    Intercession
     
    The Bible gives an example of the Blessed Virgin Mary’s intercession in John 2:3-5: “...And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine.  And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.  His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.” This verse plainly shows that Mary knew of the miracle that he was to perform, and that it was at her request (intercession) He performed the miracle.
     
    The Bible exhorts us to honor Mary, prefigures and compares her to the honored Ark of the Covenant, and gives an example of her intercession:



    The Bible esteems asking the angels and saints for their intercession:


    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9573
    • Reputation: +6261/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #33 on: November 26, 2019, 04:34:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Was not the Book of James one of the books the arch-heretic Luther threw out?
    Yes, precisely because it exposes Luther's "once saved" manure.

    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9573
    • Reputation: +6261/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #34 on: November 26, 2019, 04:39:50 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • 2. They teach their women (with no scripture to back up their teaching) that they should abandon their woman hood, . . . instead they should become menial servants to the church, . . . and to the appointed human leaders of the church. This is in total disregard to the printed teaching: 1 Timothy 5:14 (KJV) 14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

    Do you have any idea what he is talking about above? I don't.

    3. They teach that it is more proper to speak in an unknown tongue during the whole service, . . . disregarding the scripture: 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 (KJV) 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
    28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

    Without the interpretation, . . . every single latin service is in direct disregard to the commandment above.

    Firstly, [in better days] most Catholics studied Latin in grammar school and high school. Latin is our common tongue and has been so for millennia.

    Secondly, for those weak in Latin the translation is provided in Latin-Vernacular Missals and the "interpretation" is provided in the sermon. This guy is reading too many Jack Chick Comics.


    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9573
    • Reputation: +6261/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #35 on: November 26, 2019, 04:52:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Never said the word of God is wrong, just the written word can be interpreted by different people and come up with a different meaning . Also can be taken out of context to fit a point of view. God is a forgiving God he made us all I might be wrong but the good will not be thrown into the pits of hell no mater what religion they are.

    "…interpreted by different people…" The Bible rejects private interpretation: 2 Peter 1:20; Acts 8:26-31 Meanwhile self-proclaimed "Bible Believers" reject the Bible while embracing private interpretation http://judaism.is/private-interpretation.html , sola scriptura http://judaism.is/sola-scriptura.html , sola fide http://judaism.is/once-saved.html , and the rest of ʝʊdɛօ-Protestant rubbish.

    God gave teaching authority to the Apostles, not to every bonehead who thinks he is his own little pope:

    "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19

    Why do I say ʝʊdɛօ-Protestant? Because: 

    How the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan “reformed” Christians out of the Church:
     
    Jєωιѕн Influence on Christian Reform Movements
    by Rabbi Louis I. Newman,
    [url=http://www.questia.com/library/book/Jєωιѕн-influence-on-christian-reform-movements-by-louis-i-newman.jsp]http://www.questia.com/library/book/Jєωιѕн-influence-on-christian-reform-movements-by-louis-i-newman.jsp

    Online Bonaventure

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1242
    • Reputation: +789/-272
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #36 on: November 26, 2019, 04:54:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 2. They teach their women (with no scripture to back up their teaching) that they should abandon their woman hood, . . . instead they should become menial servants to the church, . . . and to the appointed human leaders of the church. This is in total disregard to the printed teaching: 1 Timothy 5:14 (KJV) 14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

    Do you have any idea what he is talking about above? I don't.

    He's talking about the Catholic Church, in general, and how they supposedly treat their women.

    I'm sure he got this from his mother's milk, imbibed into him at a young age, sitting around the table after dinner, where pa told stories of the nasty Catholics, how they eat children, and worship Baal....  He's one of the those that are definitely not going to listen.  His own bigoted hatred has blinded him to anything but his own version of truth.

    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9573
    • Reputation: +6261/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #37 on: November 26, 2019, 04:58:34 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • He's talking about the Catholic Church, in general, and how they supposedly treat their women.

    I'm sure he got this from his mother's milk, imbibed into him at a young age, sitting around the table after dinner, where pa told stories of the nasty Catholics, how they eat children, and worship Baal....  He's one of the those that are definitely not going to listen.  His own bigoted hatred has blinded him to anything but his own version of truth.
    When I have run into that type, I simply suggest putting down their Jack Chick comic books and instead checking authoritative Catholic sources of Catholic teaching. It's not like the Church has been secretive about our beliefs and disciplines.


    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9573
    • Reputation: +6261/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #38 on: November 26, 2019, 05:30:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1. They teach their adherents to pray to the saints, to Mary (Jesus' mother), and to disregard the following: Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) Jesus also told his faithful apostles: “Most truly I say to you, If you ask the Father for anything he will give it to you in my name.”—John 16:23.

    There is only one mediator between man and God, . . . Jesus. Not Mary, not Peter, not Jude, not Paul, . . . Jesus and Him alone.

    Extensive scriptural proof texts honoring Mary and praying for the intercession of the Angels and Saints: http://judaism.is/hating-mary.html

    Mimicking the тαℓмυdic hatred of the Mother of God (see Jesus in the тαℓмυd), the most Biblically ignorant and vicious of Protestants insist that Catholics “worship” the Blessed Virgin Mary. We do not worship her, we honor her exactly as the Bible honors Mary in Luke 1:26-55, the source of her titles, our “Hail Mary,” and Magnificat:
     
    “And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,  To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin' s name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.  Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.  And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.  And of his kingdom there shall be no end.  And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?  And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:  Because no word shall be impossible with God.  And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.  And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda.  And she entered into the house of Zachary, and saluted Elizabeth. And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:  And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.  And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?  For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.  And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.
     
    “And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.  And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.  Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.  And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.   He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.   He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.   He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:   As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.”

    Psalms prefigure Mary as the “house” of the Lord (like the Ark), the “daughter of the King” (to be honored). Don’t be confused by the differences in Catholic and Protestant Psalm numbering.



    There are other such examples.



    See also: Can Mary's Sinlessness Be Defended?
    http://bellofchurch.blogspot.com/2015/12/can-marys-sinlessness-be-defended.html
    Archetypes and scriptural support for the Immaculate Conception of Mary
    http://www.ccel.org/node/7738
    entry for “Immaculate Conception,” Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
    the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX
    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm
     
    The Bible and Apostolic Tradition both teach us that Mary and the Saints are our family:



    Do you have pictures of your family?  We do.
    Do you worship "graven images" of your mother?  Neither do we.

    Dulia
     
    (Greek doulia; Latin servitus), a theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints, while latria means worship given to God alone, and hyperdulia the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary. St. Augustine (City of God X.2) distinguishes two kinds of servitus: “one which is due to men . . . which in Greek is called dulia; the other, latria, which is the service pertaining to the worship of God.” St. Thomas (II-II:103:3) bases the distinction on the difference between God’s supreme dominion and that which one man may exercise over another. Catholic theologians insist that the difference is one of kind and not merely of degree; dulia and latria being as far apart as are the creature and the Creator. Leibniz, though a Protestant, recognizes the “discrimen infinitum atque immensum between the honour which is due to God and that which is shown to the saints, the one being called by theologians, after Augustine's example, latria, the other dulia”; and he further declares that this difference should “not only be inculcated in the minds of hearers and learners, but should also be manifested as far as possible by outward signs” (Syst. theol., p. 184). A further distinction is made between dulia in the absolute sense, the honour paid to persons, and dulia in the relative sense, the honour paid to inanimate objects, such as images and relics. With regard to the saints, dulia includes veneration and invocation; the former being the honour paid directly to them, the latter having primarily in view the petitioner's advantage. More detailed explanation of dulia and the reasons for which it is shown to persons or things will be found in the articles IMAGES, RELICS, SAINTS. See also ADORATION and WORSHIP.
     
    from the Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913 edition
     
    Intercession
     
    The Bible gives an example of the Blessed Virgin Mary’s intercession in John 2:3-5: “...And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine.  And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.  His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.” This verse plainly shows that Mary knew of the miracle that he was to perform, and that it was at her request (intercession) He performed the miracle.
     
    The Bible exhorts us to honor Mary, prefigures and compares her to the honored Ark of the Covenant, and gives an example of her intercession:



    The Bible esteems asking the angels and saints for their intercession:
    Interesting that the scriptural references were stripped from the post.

    Psalms prefigure Mary as the “house” of the Lord (like the Ark), the “daughter of the King” (to be honored). Don’t be confused by the differences in Catholic and Protestant Psalm numbering.

    Psalms 44:14:  “All the glory of the daughter of the King is within…”

    Psalms 83:3-5:  “My soul longeth and fainteth for the courts of the Lord. My heart and my flesh have rejoiced in the living God.  For the sparrow hath found herself a house, and the turtle a nest for herself where she may lay her young ones: Thy altars, O Lord of hosts, my king and my God.  Blessed are they that dwell in thy house, O Lord: they shall praise thee for ever and ever.”  Just as in Luke 1:48, “...henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”

    Numbers 9:15:  “Now on the day that the tabernacle [a tent used as a sanctuary for the Ark of the Covenant] was reared up, a cloud covered it...” prefigures Mary in Luke 1:35, “And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

    2 Kings 6:9-15 (2 Samuel for Protestants) repeatedly mentions the Ark and describes David’s joy dancing at the return of the Ark. This prefigures Mary as the Ark in Luke 1:44-56 when Elizabeth’s baby jumped in the womb in the presence of Mary, the New Ark, bearing Jesus in her womb, “… the infant in my womb leaped for joy.  And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.”

    The Bible and Apostolic Tradition both teach us that Mary and the Saints are our family:

    Romans 12:5:  “So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”
    No exception for the dead!

    1 Corinthians 12:26:  “And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.”
    We are one family in Jesus Christ, the living and the dead.

    The Bible exhorts us to honor Mary, prefigures and compares her to the honored Ark of the Covenant, and gives an example of her intercession:

    Luke 1:44-56  prefigured in Psalms 44:14 (Catholic numbering)
    Luke 1:35  prefigured in Numbers 9:15
    Luke 1:44-56  prefigured in 2 Kings 6:9-15
    John 2:3-5

    The Bible esteems asking the angels and saints for their intercession:

    Apocalypse 5:8 (Revelation for Protestants):  “…and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.”
    Tobias 12:12-15:  The archangel Raphael intercedes presenting Tobias and Sarah’s prayer to God.
    Zacharias 1:12-16:  Guardian angels intercede with God on behalf of the living of Jerusalem and the cities of Juda.
    2 Maccabees 15:7-16:  Jeremias appears alive with Onias to intercede for the people and the city.

    Online Bonaventure

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1242
    • Reputation: +789/-272
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #39 on: December 02, 2019, 12:30:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Some time has passed, and the thread on the other forum has remained relatively quiet since I made my last volley of responses.  Until this morning, when the OP finally chimed in.  The OP has a tendency of simply posting articles without much comment, and does not generally engage in discussion.  Several times in the thread, though, I've called him out as a Christian Zionist and anti-Catholic.  I know that he is reading the thread as he has "liked" several of the antic-Catholic responses I've already reposted here. 

    As a bit more background on this particular thread on the other forum, it was started when the OP posted this 'article' Our European 'Friends' written by American-turned-Israeli Caroline Glick. The 'article' is nothing more than the usual Israeli propaganda, bemoaning that some Israelis are having a difficult time slinging their wares because of the usual culprit, antisemitism.  Go figure. 

    in any event, below is the OP's most recent post, wherein he attempts to defend himself as well as his Zionism:

    Quote
    ...it always amazes me when someone else tells me what I think [I called him a Chrisitan Zionist and anti-Catholic]. Go back through all my posts and find one that belittles Catholics. Catholics are part of the people that make up Christians and while I disagree with them on some things they certainly are Christians.

    Yes, Christians are killed everyday by Muslims. They are the most persecuted of all people. I've posted articles that tell this story but usually the stories come from third world countries that the media could care less about. The people attacked on the London Bridge Friday were probably Christians along with the people in The Hague in Holland the same day. Try to find a news story that states their faith.

    I post a lot of articles about anti-semitism because it is a growing problem. Even in Europe anti-semitism has had a huge revival. When the chips are down Israel can only depend on support from the USA. I'm proud that my country feels this way and for all the other "underdogs" in the world.

    So, as you can see, it's the usual "I supply plenty of good stuff so please disregard my poison-pills."

    The OP also deflects my strongest allegation against him, in that his Christian Zionism comes from the crazy Protestant belief that giving the land of Israel to the modern-day Jєωs is a prerequisite to the Second Coming of Christ, which the C-Z's are, for some crazy reason, champing at the bit to get to.

    BTW, those two who were recently stabbed in London by the jihadi... I read that they were both left-winger Londoners.  So, my guess is that they were either lapsed Anglicans (still Protestants) and/or atheists.  What the OP above confuses, though, is that they were not killed because of their beliefs in Christianity (or subsequent lack thereof), but because they weren't muslim.  Big difference. 


    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9573
    • Reputation: +6261/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #40 on: December 02, 2019, 01:29:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Challenge him on his land promise heresy.

    "Isn't the Word of God enough for you? The Word of God says He fulfilled His land promises already. Who are you to contradict God?"

    “And the Lord God gave to Israel all the land that he had sworn to give to their fathers: and they possessed it and dwelt in it.... Not so much as one word, which he had promised to perform unto them, was made void, but all came to pass.” Josue 21:41-43
     
    “Thou, O Lord God, art he who chosest Abram, and broughtest him forth out of the fire of the Chaldeans, and gavest him the name of Abraham. And thou didst find his heart faithful before thee: and thou madest a covenant with him, to give him the land of the Chanaanite, of the Hethite, and of the Amorrhite, and of the Pherezite, and of the Jebusite, and of the Gergezite, to give it to his seed: and thou hast fulfilled thy words, because thou art just.” 2 Esdras [Nehemiah] 9:7-8
     


    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9573
    • Reputation: +6261/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #41 on: December 02, 2019, 01:34:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here is Sungenis's excellent scriptural debunking of "rapture": http://judaism.is/assets/rapture.pdf

    It is worth having some familiarity with that to nail Mr. C-Z if he pulls any of that rubbish.  Also, it wouldn't hurt to summarize Scofield's criminality, womanizing, and collaboration with God's most organized opposition on earth: http://judaism.is/christian-zionism.html

    Online Bonaventure

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1242
    • Reputation: +789/-272
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #42 on: December 02, 2019, 03:05:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Challenge him on his land promise heresy.

    I most definitely could.  But my guess is that he'll just disregard any such argument, instead claiming that it's really all about purging 'antisemitism' (ya know, the greatest crime humanity has ever known).  If so, this points to a much larger beef I have with him, and many like him, namely that they treat any criticism of the modern, nation-state of Israel as de facto antisemitism.  Don't like Israeli policies? Well then, you're an antisemite. That's precisely the gist of Glick article posted above.  

    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9573
    • Reputation: +6261/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #43 on: December 02, 2019, 05:19:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well… You could simply concede that…


    Online Bonaventure

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1242
    • Reputation: +789/-272
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #44 on: December 02, 2019, 08:07:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'll be sure to throw that in if it becomes necessary.  

    I just spent more time than I'd like to admit composing a response to a (new) poster who stated the following:

    Quote
    Quote
    The New Covenant only means that the means of salvation is now through Christ, it does not mean that the Old Testament no longer has any meaning and it is to be disregarded, we are just not to follow the parts that have to do with salvation the old way, sacrifices and ritual, and it should still be known in historical context.

    There are still many prophecies yet to unfold from the Old Testament, and ALL will come to pass.

    To say we are to disregard God's commands regarding Israel in the Old Testament, would be to say we might as well disregard the Ten Commandments and just kill, worship other gods, lie, steal, screw everyone's wife and not go to church.
    I have read, and am in full agreement, that one must know, and understand the the Old Testament, and the Law of the Old Testament, in order to fully, and properly, understand the New Testament and what it is saying.
    Unfortunately, most ignore the OT, and focus on strictly the NT, and in doing so lose much valuable information and insight.

    Again, my response was heavily influenced by the judaism.is sight, but it still takes time to put all of it together.  

    Adding to that, it's me versus five or more Protestants at the moment (only one of my co-religionists has dared stick his head up, but he abruptly left).  I'll let you know if/when I convert any of them.  :laugh1:

    One thing that occurred to me... the way these Protestants refer to "Israel" when talking about both the modern-day nation state founded in 1948, is the same as that as found in the Old Testament.  It's like naming a privately-owned reserve bank the Federal Reserve; for the most part, people just think that since it's got the word "Federal" in it, and it prints the cash, it MUST be run by the government.  Same concept applies to naming the modern-day nation-state 'Israel'.