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Author Topic: Response to Genesis 12:3  (Read 2300 times)

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Offline Bonaventure

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Response to Genesis 12:3
« on: November 23, 2019, 10:08:16 AM »
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  • Ok, I'm the first to admit that I'm not the most versed when it comes to theology and Catholic doctrine.  I therefore come here hat-in-hand.

    On another (non-Catholic) forum, I came across a thread of Christian Zionists bashing anyone who does not show unwavering support for Israel as being "bigoted, anti-semitic," etc.  

    One even quoted Genesis 12:3 in supporting modern-day Israel, and stated the following:

    Quote
    "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

    I'll take my chances with the promise of Almighty God, . . . made to Abraham, . . . exercised thru Isaac and Jacob and his son Judah, . . . to the present day legitimate heirs of the promised land, . . . the Jєωs.

    When the winds blow against them, . . . I'll stand with them, . . . and if we both die in a pile of empty brass, . . . we will have taken many of the enemy with us.

    I know that a proper response to this would be along the lines of Jesus being the New Covenant, and that the "families" mentioned in the aforecited are now in fact Christians (i.e., members of the Catholic Church). 

    However, can someone please supply me with a more authoritative basis and/or response?  My guess that somewheres in this forum there lies an answer, but my searching capabilities here are something to be desired.

    Thanks in advance.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #1 on: November 23, 2019, 10:26:34 AM »
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  • The short version:

    (1) The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is the only true Israel today and practicing Catholics are the only true Jєωs today.
    (2) "The ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan, those who say they are Jєωs, and are not, but do lie" is not true Israel.
    (3) Hence, the promises of Genesis 12:3 apply to the Church, today's true Israel, not to  the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan's project in the Holy Land.

    The longer version with Scriptural proof texts: http://judaism.is/covenants.html



    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #2 on: November 23, 2019, 10:47:15 AM »
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  • I am assuming that since you are arguing with non-Catholics, you want proof from Scripture (and I'm giving quotes from Revised Standard Version, which is a version Protestants typically recognize).  Galatians 3:8,9 explicitly mentions the passage from Genesis:  

    " 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are men of faith are blessed with Abraham who had faith."

    St. Paul continues his train of thought in the following verses.  In verse 14 he clearly says that the blessing of Abraham comes to the Gentiles in Christ:  

    "14 that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

    St. Paul makes a similar point in verse 29:  

    "29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."

    Other verses you may find useful are: Matt 3:9  Rom 4:13  Rom 9:8

    So-called "Christian Zionism" is an incoherent position and is clearly opposed by Scripture.  Don't be intimidated by accusations of antisemitism.  The term is practically meaningless and is little more than a way to silence people.

    (I see that Mark answered as I was writing this, but I will leave my answer too.)


    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #3 on: November 23, 2019, 01:36:18 PM »
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  • Thanks.

    Would it also be correct to say that Genesis 12:3 is in reference to Abrahamic (and later Mosaic) judaism, whereas present day Israel is nothing of the such, it being post-Temple/Rabbinic/тαℓмυdic judaism? 

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #4 on: November 23, 2019, 03:51:29 PM »
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  • Genesis 12:3 is a promise to Abram (later Abraham) personally when he was still a Gentile, so properly the reference is to Abram's lineage. While it is true that, for a time, Mosaic Jєωs were in Abram's lineage, they are different covenants. I think mention of the Mosaic Covenant in this context confuses the issue, potentially conflating (in your listener) the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant and the conditional Mosaic Covenant—especially since God judged that, as a nation, the Jєωs had voided the Mosaic Covenant long before the Incarnation (see Deuteronomy 31:16 & 20; Ezechiel 20:23; Jeremias 31:31-32; Malachias 2:8-12).


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #5 on: November 23, 2019, 04:36:17 PM »
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  • To be a Zionist is to contradict Scripture. One cannot contradict Scripture and be Christian.

    Here is the Abrahamic Covenant made by God unconditionally to Abram personally while he was still a Gentile, before there was a even one Jєω, before there was a Jєωιѕн nation:

    And the Lord said to Abram: Go forth out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and out of thy father's house, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.  And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and magnify thy name, and thou shalt be blessed.  I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee, and IN THEE shall all the kindred of the earth be blessed: Genesis 12:1-3

    God further elaborated His unconditional covenant in Genesis 17:4ff:

    And God said to him: I AM, and my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.  Neither shall thy name be called any more Abram [high father]: but thou shalt be called Abraham [father of multitudes]:  because I have made thee a father of many nations.  And I will make thee increase, exceedingly, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and between thy seed after thee in their generations, by a perpetual covenant: to be a God to thee, and to thy seed after thee.  And I will give to thee, and to thy seed, the land of thy sojournment, all the land of Chanaan for a perpetual possession, and I will be their God.  Again God said to Abraham: And thou therefore shalt keep my covenant, and thy seed after thee in their generations.  This is my covenant which you shall observe, between me and you, and thy seed after thee: All the male kind of you shall be circuмcised:…

    God’s Word says twice that He fulfilled the land promises of Genesis 12:8, once in Josue 21:41-43:

    “And the Lord God gave to Israel all the land that he had sworn to give to their fathers: and they possessed it and dwelt in it.... Not so much as one word, which he had promised to perform unto them, was made void, but all came to pass.”  

    And again in 2 Esdras [Nehemiah] 9:7-8:

    “Thou, O Lord God, art he who chosest Abram, and broughtest him forth out of the fire of the Chaldeans, and gavest him the name of Abraham. And thou didst find his heart faithful before thee: and thou madest a covenant with him, to give him the land of the Chanaanite, of the Hethite, and of the Amorrhite, and of the Pherezite, and of the Jebusite, and of the Gergezite, to give it to his seed: and thou hast fulfilled thy words, because thou art just.”

    The promise of perpetual ownership of “all the land of Chanaan” passed to the lineage of Abraham at the moment of Christ’s death on His Cross.

    “The ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan, those who say they are Jєωs, and are not, but do lie” (Apocalypse 3:9) have no claim to land and no claim to the spiritual lineage of Abraham. The ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan departed from Abraham’s lineage and forfeit the patrimony of Abraham when they voided the conditional Mosaic Covenant as God so many times accused them (see Deuteronomy 31:16 & 20; Ezechiel 20:23; Jeremias 31:31-32; Malachias 2:8-12).  God ridiculed the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan’s claim of a carnal connection to Abraham. The ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan has no legitimate claim to the land or spiritual promises of the Abrahamic Covenant.

    Abraham’s patrimony and lineage passed to the Christians (but not to those who say they are Christians, but are not , who broke off and do butcher God’s Word and persecute the one Church God founded in Matthew 16:18 ) :

    There is neither Jєω nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ’s, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.  Galatians 3:28-29


    God’s New Chosen People:

    But you [speaking to the Christians] are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Who in time past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10




    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #6 on: November 23, 2019, 04:42:11 PM »
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  • Ok, thanks.

    I went and read the link posted above.  I have to say, that was probably the most comprehensive and understandable piece I've ever read on the subject.  Unsurprisingly, this was never taught in the [C]atholic school I attended.

    I may have relied upon it a bit in my response to the 'Christian' Zionists in the other forum.  :-X

    I'll let you know if I get banned therefrom (wouldn't be surprised if I did).  :cowboy:

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #7 on: November 23, 2019, 04:49:57 PM »
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  • Ok, thanks.

    I went and read the link posted above.  I have to say, that was probably the most comprehensive and understandable piece I've ever read on the subject.  Unsurprisingly, this was never taught in the [C]atholic school I attended.

    I may have relied upon it a bit in my response to the 'Christian' Zionists in the other forum.  :-X

    I'll let you know if I get banned therefrom (wouldn't be surprised if I did).  :cowboy:
    From my home page:
    "Please quote the materials here far and wide. Use this material to expose and defeat Satan and his ѕуηαgσgυє. Most importantly, pray the Rosary every day."

    If you PM me with a link, I would be happy to join you in the melee!


    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #8 on: November 23, 2019, 04:58:11 PM »
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  • From my home page:
    "Please quote the materials here far and wide. Use this material to expose and defeat Satan and his ѕуηαgσgυє. Most importantly, pray the Rosary every day."

    If you PM me with a link, I would be happy to join you in the melee!

    Normally, I would.  However, in this particular forum, and more specifically the sub-forum of the forum where this thread lies, the sub-forum is only accessible by those who have been members of the general forum for at least three months, and made a minimum number of posts.  Sorry, but I don't make the rules over there.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #9 on: November 23, 2019, 05:03:23 PM »
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  • Gut! Verstanden!  Be sure to throw in a few German words there, so they can also call you a nαzι! (laughing)



    Hmmmm... perhaps i need to make a "The Bible is 'antisemitic'" meme.

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #10 on: November 23, 2019, 06:54:41 PM »
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  • Well... I already got at least one response, from the same guy who I copied above.  Here's all he wrote...

    Quote
    That is your opinion, . . . full of garbage, trash, innuendo, and outright lies, . . . but you didn't make em up, . . . you just follow em.

    I would wish you good luck, . . . but since there is no such word in the Bible, . . . you're on your own pal.

    I don't think the guy is playing with a full deck, or is so caught up in his own cognitive dissonance, the only thing he can rely upon is the baseless assertion that what was written (taken almost entirely from scripture, mind you) was nothing but "garbage, trash, innuendo, and outright lies...."

    I think I'll end up responding with the Bible must be anti-semitic, too.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #11 on: November 23, 2019, 06:57:52 PM »
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  • Very satisfying to see them apoplectic from Scripture. I'll bet Holy Water sizzles their flesh.

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #12 on: November 24, 2019, 08:07:40 AM »
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  • I got two more replies, each from different posters (I haven't yet responded to the last one quoted above as I was giving time for others to weigh in).

    First response:

    Quote
    The New Covenant only means that the means of salvation is now through Christ, it does not mean that the Old Testament no longer has any meaning and it is to be disregarded, we are just not to follow the parts that have to do with salvation the old way, sacrifices and ritual, and it should still be known in historical context.

    There are still many prophecies yet to unfold from the Old Testament, and ALL will come to pass.

    To say we are to disregard God's commands regarding Israel in the Old Testament, would be to say we might as well disregard the Ten Commandments and just kill, worship other gods, lie, steal, screw everyone's wife and not go to church.

    In Revelation 21:12–14 the names of the twelve tribes are on the gates of the New Jerusalem, and the names of the twelve apostles are on the foundations. There it signifies the unity of the Old Testament and the New Testament people of God in the New Jerusalem. In that time, the New Jerusalem will be a real place, not just some fantasy.

    The nation for the sealing. “Of all the tribes of the children of Israel” (Revelation 7:4). Those sealed were Jєωs. There are many other references to Jєωs and their importance to God in the New Testament.

    Ephesians 6:12 says, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places". That doesn't have to do with Israel or Jєωs but it shows that every attack against them individually or as a nation is the work of Satan, plain and simple.

    Not pointing to anyone on here individually, but in regards to the article, I would not want to have any anti-Semetic views when I am in front of God on my judgement day. If it hurts our heart, imagine how God feels about it...

    Right off the bat, a huge bait-and-swtich, as no where was it stated in my response, explicitly or implicitly, that one simply ignores the Old Testament.  In fact, just the contrary was true.

    Also, regarding the last sentence on the 'anti-semetic' views, the writer is again implicitly saying one's DNA is what determines salvation.  Up until yesterday, I had not understood how erroneous such an argument truly was.

    One other thing that I've noticed while arguing these points with Protestants... aren't they simply just making the case that they should be converting to Judaism?

    The second response:

    Quote
    [To the poster previously quoted twice above re: Genesis 12:3], both your posts are well stated. [Bonaventure] started this off with his reference to "Christian Zionists." Today's anti-Zionist movement uses terms like that in a thinly veiled attempt to conceal what is simply garden variety antisemitism, an outright hatred of Jєωs. The philosophy is indistinguishable from the tenets of either the muslim; the humanists; or certain twisted beliefs of some in the Roman church. It was merely a question of which of the three he subscribed too. I eliminated the muslim, since that was obviously not the case, though there is no distinction in the agenda of destruction of the Jєωιѕн race and faith. Since he brought up the SPLC [which I did because this particular poster immediately called me ignorant, bigoted, racist and anti-semtic, straight out of the SLPC's playbook], which is a humanist org of the most vile nature, I didn't really think it was that either. Besides, SPLC is equally antisemitic and supports the muslim's rights over those of both Christians and Jєωs. But now we have it in his own words. Fortunately, the Roman church, as a whole, is not on this kind of path anymore, with the exception of a few remaining branches of that particular ilk that allied even with the nαzιs, because they shared the same goals. [Bonaventure] would have fit right in.

    I have encountered his arguments before, and they have their root only in deep seated hatred and the delusions that must accompany in order to justify the need to hate. If there is any monotheistic faith that has proven to rival islam in its cold-hearted butchery and debauchery, it is the Roman church of earlier ages. Even in modern times it has served as a purveyor of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ pedophilia, covering its tracks for decades until the secret could no longer be shielded from daylight. For all the many fine people of that religion, for all the fine priests, nuns and other leadership, the church has had a rotten core almost from its inception. The good it has done has come in spite of that. Thus it is with most institutions of mankind.

    And make no mistake, all the Christian denominations are creations of mankind, made for this corporeal world. But inside all of them is the message of the Gospels, the universal truth of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Christ was of the House of David, as Jєωιѕн as any man could be, who clearly stated that he had come to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Which were of the Jєωs, by the way. His charge to His disciples and other followers- all Jєωs by the way- was to tell all the world, not to distinguish between any race. None of this changes who were God's chosen people, but the message of salvation is available to all. When we learn to disregard all the trappings of religion- Roman, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, what have you- we will see that the labels do not matter, only what is in our hearts and our witness to that.

    It is worth noting that the word "catholic" has its roots in Greek, and it merely means "universal." The Roman "Catholic" church has, in some minds, a fallacious notion of exclusivity, which requires a deliberate ignorance of its root meaning.
    Quote:

    As a bit more background, what started this thread in the other forum (which is comprised of mainly Boomer men and whose topics are generally far, far from being religious ones) was a poster, whom I've come to realize is a Christian Zionist Evangelical out of Tennessee, who posted this article on how mean the European Court is to those poor, poor Jєωs. This particular poster is ALWAYS posting articles such as these, the purpose of which is to further garner U.S. support for the state of Israel, which I generally ignore.  But for some reason, several other posters commented in approval of the article, again with the poor-Jєω hand wringing and obvious virtue-signalling.  I let this get the best of me, and submitted a post which simply stated that the 'Christian' Zionism ran deep in that particular thread.  Yup, that was all it took for the calls of me being ignorant, racist and anti-semitic.

    Now, regarding my 'Christian' Zionist comment, the second response above misses my point entirely.  For I know these posters are generally Protestants, and when they come out in full, unwavering support of the state of Israel/Judaism, they do so not for empathy/sympathy for the Jєωιѕн cause, but more because of their selfish belief that in doing so they will bring about the second coming of Christ, and thus will be bringing about their own salvation.  

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #13 on: November 24, 2019, 10:06:04 AM »
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  • Now, regarding my 'Christian' Zionist comment, the second response above misses my point entirely.  For I know these posters are generally Protestants, and when they come out in full, unwavering support of the state of Israel/Judaism, they do so not for empathy/sympathy for the Jєωιѕн cause, but more because of their selfish belief that in doing so they will bring about the second coming of Christ, and thus will be bringing about their own salvation.  

    What jumps out to me is the hypocrisy of lecturing you for being anti-semitic while they are displaying bigotry and hatred toward Catholics.  They are the actual bigots in the situation.

    These people do not sound like they are capable of being reached with reason, but, at least, it seems like you are learning something from the process of standing against their errors.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #14 on: November 24, 2019, 10:19:21 AM »
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  • These will really hit the mark with "Christian" Zionists.