Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Thursday on June 07, 2011, 05:08:12 AM
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I haven't been posting for a while but a few months back I posted my little docuмentary on the election of Cardinal Siri. For those of you that watched you saw that the movie covered much more than just the evidence that Cardinal Siri was elected.
Anyway, I had 100 DVDs made up for no particular reason. I went and picked up the movie last Friday just in time for the local Artwalk Festival. During the festival several blocks downtown are closed off and anyone with 100 bucks can get a booth to sell their art. I had not planned to sell them there.
So I spent two days sitting at a table selling my flic Papal Imposters. I have to admit I felt pretty awkward at first, especially since I had no time to work on my display, but two hours in I made my first sale. Then I sold a few more and also got a bit of a chance to tell people about traditional Catholicism. At the end of the first day I sold 4 movies at $10 a pop, 6 or 7 other folks had taken a summary of the movie and said they would think about it. Some very poor looking people were asking about the film and thinking back now I should have just gave them a copy or sold them at cost about $3. I was there from 11am to 4pm.
The next day I brought along my Father Steadman's Missal and kept it in my pocket. Some older ladies who inquired about the movie where very surprised when I brought out the old missal "I haven't seen one of those in ages" was what I tended to hear. This day I sold 5 copies. Again I was there for about 5 hours.
The town where I was selling them has about 60,000 people, no traditional parishes and I think 5 or 6 NO parishes.
Most of my sales where to males between 35 to 55 however many women inquired. The women tended to say that they would come back but didn't, one of these I offered the film for half and she bought it.
Anyone who wants the film feel free to PM me. You can print up copies and sell them just like I did. I wouldn't do it for the money because you'll be lucky to break even but I met a lot of nice/interesting people, some other independent filmakers introduced themselves to me as well. 3 people tried to convert me, 2 to protestantism and one to the Orthodox Church. Oh, and I got lots of sneers from self-professed atheists.
In case you missed the film here it is on youtube
Part 1 Historical Precedents http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQBP9HmZDGk
Part 2 October 1958 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qikkoocqgUE
Part 3 The Chosen Candidate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giVuud52ijY
Part 4 The 1958 Conclave http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQp00j4H3Kg
Part 5 Who was John XXIII? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOgD0Yyoqts
Part 6 The 1963 Conclave http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBNwhnHius
Part 7 Who was Paul VI? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeEkSJukLaw
Part 8 The Destruiction of the Mass http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdIDIOwjGN4
Part 9 Year of Two Conclaves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvUWfaXG9lk
Part 10 Cardinal Siri Confronted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGk14Fau41U
Part 11 Conclusion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8wdrmFxSBQ
Part 12 The UndergroundChurch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTPZZLvFANo
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Next time you should give them away, or sell for $1.00. :laugh1: (the Dimonds had success with this method :laugh1:)
Best of luck with your endeavors. I'll have a look at your work.
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Make sure you watch part four, there is rare footage of the famous white smoke coming from the Sistine Chapel 2 days before Roncalli showed up on the balcony.
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Thursday,
Have you ever successfully contacted "Paul Williams?" I've tried so many times to do this, but he never returns my calls, and he never replies to my emails. I've been trying to get a hold of him for quite a few years. I think it was a mistake to include his book in this docuмentary, because he is not being cooperative to disseminating where he got the information, giving VERY CRAPPY references to his "findings" through the Department of State docuмents. I've had the National Archives investigate this, and two people have gone down there to look at the boxes supposedly containing this information, and such information does not exist.
Until this can be properly verified, I think it was not a good idea to put this into your videos. This guy gives unreliable references in his book that lead NOWHERE when investigated thoroughly.
Where is this "Department of State secret dispatch 'John XXIII' issue date: November 20, 1958"? Where is it? Have you seen it? Can you find it? I wouldn't even cite that unless I saw this so-called "secret dispatch" myself.
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I think I mentioned it here before but I put him because of his stature, the book was published by a major company and he would have been open to lawsuits if he couldn't back what he was saying.
There could be many reasons why he would not respond to e-mails. I know that just because a docuмent has been declassified doesn't mean just anybody can get access to it. Also the guy is pretty anti-Catholic so I wonder how keen he is on helping us out. Julian Assange is a good example of what people who leak docuмents have to deal with.
But, yes, we do not know for sure if he is telling the truth and it would be nice if would respond to questions.
There was another priest by the name of Fr. Charles-roux who said claimed that Siri was elected and cast aside without actually abdicating. I did fail to mention this.
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Thursday,
I even put in FOIA requests to the State Department regarding the docuмents he supposedly cited here, and there was absolutely nothing. They would have had to release them because of this law, if they were indeed, declassified. I really think he's a very unreliable source. I also put in FOIA requests to the National Archives after I was told by the State Department that they didn't have docuмents that old. I even had someone go to Maryland to the State Department Archives, and nothing too.
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Wish we lived closer Thursday... I'll sit with you at a booth any day... This is something I need to be doing more of!
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I was thinking of asking this guy about it.
http://sites.google.com/site/ernie124102/foia
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You should have included Father Villa's extensive collection on Paul VI as references when they attempted to canonize him. One single book was enough to stop the process completely, "Paul VI beatified?"
Also, Fr. Khoat is very much unbelievable. His credibility is totally shot, and I really don't believe his story at all. There is a lot of monkey business that went on with him. The priest at my Church knew who he was, and looked into the very same things that Khoat looked into, with totally different results.
The guy following Fr. Khoat (Hobson, who has been banned from this website numerous times for being a pathological liar, and a horrible detractor, ) and his so-called "hierarchy in exile" is completely devoid of credibility from the slanderous attacks that have been made by Hobson. He promised two years ago that the "evidence" he supposedly received from the National Archives (thanks to me, by the way) would be disseminated in the "fourth quarter of this year" which was two years ago now, and no one has seen anything. I've received 3 docuмents that reveal things that we've already been aware of, but nothing of any proof or substance regarding the election.
From John Venarri:
"Cardinal Siri participated in the Second Vatican Council, which was called, if the Siri Thesis is correct, by a Holy Father who was neither Holy nor the Church’s Father. Siri accepted the decisions of Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition. He adopted the reforms, celebrated the Novus Ordo Mass, ordained priests in the New Rite, and consecrated bishops in the New Rite. Why would Pope Gregory XVII adopt sacraments and liturgical re-forms enacted by men whom he knew were false Popes? What sort of man does “our last true Pope” turn out to be?"
So, why, if he were such a staunch traditionalist, would he even entertain the idea of "celebrating" the Novus Ordo?
And, the final question, is who is pope now, if Siri was elected and is dead now? Does anyone have the answer to that question? People that claim that Siri was the pope come up saying, "Infallible Church teaching says that every human person needs to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" for salvation, and so, where is this mysterious pope that we must submit to?
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I was thinking of asking this guy about it.
http://sites.google.com/site/ernie124102/foia
Do it.
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I was thinking of asking this guy about it.
http://sites.google.com/site/ernie124102/foia
Do it.
And perhaps you should make your own movie since you are such an expert.
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I was thinking of asking this guy about it.
http://sites.google.com/site/ernie124102/foia
Do it.
And perhaps you should make your own movie since you are such an expert.
I don't know how to do any of that. I am no expert. I just want to know the truth, and I have been actively seeking it out for a long time. I spent months and months on this stuff. I wanted to find out the source of the docuмent that "Paul Williams" cited, and I couldn't ever find anything despite my best efforts. I even was going to take a trip to the National Archives, but I was too pregnant to do so when the opportunity arose. About a year after the first person went over there to check it out (because THAT PERSON wouldn't share his information with me even though he promised to do so), a SECOND person went over there to check it out, and even paid close to $1200 for an archivist to do some research for him since HE has a family to take care of... and the archivist found the same three docuмents I was sent that really basically said nothing and provided no proof, and certainly neither the proof we were looking for, nor anything close to anything other than hearsay.
I know that a lot of the stuff in the videos you did is absolutely true but as far proving most of that, with hard evidence, is becoming less and less of a probability with each passing day.
What would be extremely interesting, since you're apt at putting videos together, would be to get in contact with Father Luigi Villa, and try to get him to provide the things he's found out regarding this issue, because I'm sure in the position he is in, he could give you a wealth of information. He's 93 years old, so time is ticking away on that prospect.
Here's a link to his contact information if you want to talk to him:
http://chiesaviva.com/contatti.htm
I appreciate the work that you've already done, and hope you can get some concrete docuмents together to prove absolutely what you're saying is backed up by 100% fact. It's hard to refute when you have hard evidence, and that's something I haven't been able to find regarding this issue.
God bless you.
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He would be a good person to contact, in fact I think I tried to contact them at some point but received no reply.
In this docuмent, which was written about Fr. Villa on page 11 there is a picture of Cardinal Siri, under the picture it says that he was elected in 1963 and in 1978.
http://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Chi___don_Villa_OK_en.pdf
As far as finding absolute proof as in an FBI docuмent I don't think that is possible or necessary. For one, even if there was an FBI file the usual folks would find reasons to dismiss it.
If there was an FBI file my guess it was Cardinal Spellman, archbishop of New York who was the source. He was very good friends with secretary of state John Foster Dulles and with J Edgar Hoover, head of the FBI. John Foster Dulles if you look into his family background, they have been subverting major religious institutions for the last 200 years.
The circuмstantial evidence is there however, we had a pope and a church up until the death of Pius XII. 3 weeks later we had a pope calling councils, changing masses and inviting communist over to the Vatican. Between these 2 eras we had 5 minutes of white smoke and a no-show on the balcony. IMO you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out the real pope was elected then.
As to who was elected, all the arrows point to Siri. He was widely expected to become Pope. Several Priest and an intelligence expert claim he was elected. He admitted he was elected pope twice. He called Vatican II the greatest mistake in history, he said it would take the Church 50 years to recover from John xxiiis PONTIFICATE, in the front page of the newspaper the day before the 1978 conclave he said if he became pope he would turn back the clock to before the council.
You or John Vennari are in no position to judge what he should or shouldn't have done after his election, there is no way of knowing for us on the outside what was really going in the inner circles of power or what his options were.
How do you know he wasn't just keeping a low profile until the enemy started to run out of gas, like they are doing now. He said it would take 50 years to recover. There is a pretty good chance he knew what he was doing.
Anyway, sorry for being snotty in my earlier post.
God bless you too.
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You or John Vennari are in no position to judge what he should or shouldn't have done after his election, there is no way of knowing for us on the outside what was really going in the inner circles of power or what his options were.
How do you know he wasn't just keeping a low profile until the enemy started to run out of gas, like they are doing now. He said it would take 50 years to recover. There is a pretty good chance he knew what he was doing.
Anyway, sorry for being snotty in my earlier post.
God bless you too.
I'm not judging what he should or shouldn't have done. I'm saying I don't know what the solution to this problem is, and I'm going to leave it up to the Church to figure it out. The restoration is GOING to take place at some point, even if Saint Paul and Saint Peter come down here and shine a heavenly light down on the one who is supposed to be pope (which is supposed to happen at some point, according to private revelation.)
People ask me if I'm a sede. No, I am not. I follow all of the real popes up to this time, whoever they are, the perennial teachings of the Church which cannot change no matter who is pope, and the 200 something successors of Saint Peter that are still currently reigning now. Cardinal Siri might well have been the pope, but he never publicly came out and said he was or not, and did not compel any of the faithful in a public way to obey him, and so, how can I be compelled to obey someone that neither asserted his authority, nor publicly compelled us to believe the fact that he held the office in a public way?
The Church will figure this out, and in the meantime, I'm just going to wait until that happens. There's nothing I can personally do about the situation, but pray that this horrible time comes to an expedient end.
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There's nothing I can personally do about the situation, but pray that this horrible time comes to an expedient end.
Which does not mean that we cannot continue to do research on the matter.
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There's nothing I can personally do about the situation, but pray that this horrible time comes to an expedient end.
Which does not mean that we cannot continue to do research on the matter.
Of course! In fact, I wholly encourage it! If you can get a hold of "Paul Williams" or Father Villa, go to the National Archives, the State Department Archives... whatever you want, DO IT! If there's actual hard evidence out there to support this, I would absolutely LOVE to know it, as every other Catholic in the entire world.
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It's true we don't know exactly what happened. I find the Siri story fascinating enough to be interesting to even the most disinterested of Catholics.
In a way, I'm using the Siri story because it is a bit sensational and it can be explained in about 8 seconds. Try explaining the fact that Pius V had a papal bull in 1507 to your average Catholic and see how fast their eyes gloss over.
Or try explaining the second vatican council... it's too boring!
In short the film has to be marketable.
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I would like very much to thank Thurs for keeping this on the front burner. MO is that because Williams is not Catholic, he did not understand the significance of the info in his book. Later he was told to shut up and has done so.
The Siri and Rampolla episodes have certain things in common. One is that Mr Vennari is involved in dismissing both of these great men of the Church. Not only that but along with Mrs Engel, he has scandalised Card Raphael and therefore Pius X as well. His assessment of the 1958 election cannot be trusted.
PFT's demand for absolute proof of the Siri election is quite unreasonable as none of us was there. I agree that it ' doesn't take Sherlock Holmes' to figure out what happened.
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Mr Hobson is not perfect but describing him as a 'pathological liar and horrible detractor' who is 'completely devoid of credibility' is way off the charts. MO is that a vitriolic attack on him in this way Adds to his credibility.
More info
http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com/Articles.htm
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Mr Hobson is not perfect but describing him as a 'pathological liar and horrible detractor' who is 'completely devoid of credibility' is way off the charts. MO is that a vitriolic attack on him in this way Adds to his credibility.
More info
http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com/Articles.htm
Have you had any personal dealings with Mr. Hobgoblin, Roscoe? I doubt it.
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Excepting that he emailed me a couple of times, no-- I have not.
Is the following a correct interpretation of events as far as U can tell?
Someone in Rome informed the FBI that Cardinal Siri was elected Pope.
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OK -- I got out the book again and it was an informant for our State dept that relayed the report to Wash. Here is what i cannot comprende-- what would be the purpose in making up a story that Card Siri was elected Pope if he was not?
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Is PFT saying then that the entire scenario of the election of Siri is completely in the mind( for whatever reason) of Williams and there was never any report filed from Rome to Wash?
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Thursday,
So how are you claiming the post-vcii popes were "imposters"? Didn't Siri himself recognize them all as true popes?
Thanks!
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Is PFT saying then that the entire scenario of the election of Siri is completely in the mind( for whatever reason) of Williams and there was never any report filed from Rome to Wash?
No, and if you paid any attention to anything I've said, that's not the case, Roscoe. "Paul Williams" is not a credible source, as he has fake citations in his book related to the supposed "secret declassified docuмents" as they don't exist the way he cited them. When repeatedly asked about them through multiple avenues of communication, he flat out refuses to respond to any questions about them. And so, I think that since these docuмents he supposedly saw are improperly cited so that no one else can see them, I tend to believe he's full of bologna. That's not to say that other sources may be accurate, but we have no hard evidence attributed to him at all. I would believe Father Martin before I would believe the anti-catholic "Paul Williams."
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I have already responded to the above scenario. I believe Williams-- as a non catholic-- didn't understand the significance of the info he released and has since been intimidated into silence. There are many other sources for the story-- this makes the State Dept report quite poss. One source for the story that I do not trust is M Martin-- or whoever he is.
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Mr Hobson is not perfect but describing him as a 'pathological liar and horrible detractor' who is 'completely devoid of credibility' is way off the charts. MO is that a vitriolic attack on him in this way Adds to his credibility.
More info
http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com/Articles.htm
Have you had any personal dealings with Mr. Hobgoblin, Roscoe? I doubt it.
Roscoe and Hobson have something in common. They both use the word "Jansenist" alot.
:scratchchin:
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Hi Thursday,
Great going!
Why don't you contact Mel?
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Thursday,
So how are you claiming the post-vcii popes were "imposters"? Didn't Siri himself recognize them all as true popes?
Thanks!
He recognized them publically but what choice did he have?, if he started claiming that he himself was pope I think he would have quickly died of a heart attack (as in John Paul I).
In 1963 while making a speech defending the primacy of Peter he collapsed on the spot and was taken to the hospital.
I think it is fair to assume that he tried to stay in a position of influence, along with Cardinal Ottiavanni in order to do damage control. Franco Bellegrandi says so in his book Nakita Roncalli.
Also, if he was indeed elected and accepted the office as I think he did, he would have to go through a very public ceremony in order to abdicate.
Another point to consider is that (according to Robert Bellarmine) a heretic cannot be elected pope. In the past individuals who were weak were elected so that they could be easily controlled, but when they became pope and inspired by the Holy Ghost their plans faltered. Therefore in order to get a heretic in the throne of St. Peter they would have to elect a man and then prevent him from the throne, so that the usurper would be free of the influence of the Holy Ghost.
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Hi Thursday,
Great going!
Why don't you contact Mel?
Do you have his e-mail? :scratchchin:
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Hi Thursday,
Great going!
Why don't you contact Mel?
Do you have his e-mail? :scratchchin:
Just a second, I'll check my files......
:read-paper: :reading: :smash-pc: :sleep: :ready-to-eat: :tv-disturbed: :detective:
:idea:
Well, maybe Mr. Hutton Gibson will forward a message to him. He has a contact page at
www.huttongibson.com
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H Gibson is with J Vennari vs Card's Rampolla, Raphael Del Val and Siri( pope Gregory XVII): and by implication-- Popes Leo and Pius X,XI(XII), XII(XIII) . :smoke-pot: what happened to the wine emoticon?
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I guess it got taken off. I'm still hoping Matthew will add a violin emoticon one day.
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H Gibson is with J Vennari vs Card's Rampolla, Raphael Del Val and Siri( pope Gregory XVII): and by implication-- Popes Leo and Pius X,XI(XII), XII(XIII) . :smoke-pot: what happened to the wine emoticon?
oooh. hmmm. :scratchchin: :stare:
What a confusing muddle of unfortunate circuмstances. Let me have a toke on that doobie for a sec.
:smoke-pot:
ahhh. There. I think I see more clearly now.
Let me ask, is it possible to believe that Cardinal Siri was elected and then summarily 'unelected' but not necessarily believe that that means that it must naturally follow that he then became the true pope as Gregory XVII?
iow, if you believe the first, does that mean you believe the second?
one step at a time, plz.
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I guess it got taken off. I'm still hoping Matthew will add a violin emoticon one day.
I am still waiting for the 3 monkeys
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H Gibson is with J Vennari vs Card's Rampolla, Raphael Del Val and Siri( pope Gregory XVII): and by implication-- Popes Leo and Pius X,XI(XII), XII(XIII) . :smoke-pot: what happened to the wine emoticon?
oooh. hmmm. :scratchchin: :stare:
What a confusing muddle of unfortunate circuмstances. Let me have a toke on that doobie for a sec.
:smoke-pot:
ahhh. There. I think I see more clearly now.
Let me ask, is it possible to believe that Cardinal Siri was elected and then summarily 'unelected' but not necessarily believe that that means that it must naturally follow that he then became the true pope as Gregory XVII?
iow, if you believe the first, does that mean you believe the second?
one step at a time, plz.
I can only speak for myself but any 'unelection' of Siri would be as illegal as the abdication of St Celestine.
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So, Mel Gibson owns the movie rights to the Cardinal Siri story?
interesting.
What are they (Hutton and Mel), double agents?
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I do not trust them
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I guess it got taken off. I'm still hoping Matthew will add a violin emoticon one day.
I am still waiting for the 3 monkeys
I guess you'll have to wait a LONG time then.
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Thursday, I just saw your thread here and I am thoroughly impressed. You will be in my rosary intentions...what you are doing is pure warrior. St. Michael must be your patron saint.
Keep it up, I sometimes wish I would do the things you are doing myself. I pray for courage, Lord!
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Catholicism rightly values testimony, and of course, the word of a subject himself. That is the way it's always been. I am thinking specifically of the meeting of Fr. Khoat with Cardinal Siri (do I have to explain that meeting?).
Believe me, "testimony" and "conclusion of the witness" are two different things (any lawyers on this forum?).
Fr. Khoat stalked Siri and suddenly faced him with the question, "Are you the pope?" Cardinal Siri answered, categorically, "No". The Cardinal was asked again (because Fr. Khoat didn't accept that categorical answer), and the same answer was given. Fr. Khoat professed he believed Siri was really the true pope, and then proceeded to accuse Cardinal Siri of being guilty of the "murder" of clergy in Vietnam! At that point Cardinal Siri had tears in his eyes (I would, too!). Seeing the man would not take "no" for an answer, and wanting the man out of his face, the Cardinal sarcastically gave the accuser of murder what he wanted, an affirmative answer....which worked, and Fr. Khoat left him alone. If I was Cardinal Siri at that moment, I would have felt my life was in immediate danger, and the sarcastic reply was understandable because the priest clearly would accept no denial. Siri merely humored the frightening stranger.
The conclusion of the witness is Fr. Khoat believing the extorted affirmation was the truth. However, the actual testimony was the denial given by Cardinal Siri. Cardinal Siri lived that denial his whole life both before and after that meeting. To think the Cardinal was really the true pope and would have revealed that truth ONLY to a stranger that accused him of murder, is just plain fantasy.
Yes, perhaps Cardinal Siri was elected, but he most assuredly resigned if that were the case. The promoters of Siri as pope say the resignation was under duress and therefore invalid. However, this doesn't hold water because he had no more duress than any other pope, all who knew well how many people hated him, and how the very gates of hell would be focused upon him. This is not a duress that counts. Duress means immanent danger of being killed within moments or hours, for example, and no hypothetical fear counts. In addition, he lived a life of resignation to his resignation in most peaceful years.
I look at the promoters of Siri as a huge distraction, waste of time and fantasy, and one that even resembles a cult like the Masons in that they go around hoping to make people profess fealty, faith and trust in unseen and unnamed men living who knows where today. Even in the bloody persecution days of the catacombs, Christians knew who the pope was.
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No other Cardinal besides Siri can make the claim to be elected in 1958.
The fact is that there Have been times in history when people did not know who the Pope was.
It seems as if Nonno and SS both believe at least that Siri Might have been elected. MO is that his taking a papal name proves that he was.
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We have the testimony that Cardinal Siri denied being the pope.
Now, roscoe, where is the testimony that he took a papal name?
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Thursday,
Good work!! :applause:
the smart sheep
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It seems as if Nonno and SS both believe at least that Siri Might have been elected. MO is that his taking a papal name proves that he was.
roscoe, where is the testimony that he took a papal name?
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It seems as if Nonno and SS both believe at least that Siri Might have been elected. MO is that his taking a papal name proves that he was.
roscoe, where is the testimony that he took a papal name?
The white smoke that billowed out of the Sistine Chapel for 5 straight minutes on the evening of November 26th, 1958. He gets elected, he accepts the office and takes his name, then the white smoke goes up. That's the procedure and there's your testimony.
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Testimony from the man himself that he was not pope, chronologically overrides anything previous to the contrary.
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Testimony from the man himself that he was not pope, chronologically overrides anything previous to the contrary.
Oh really? He was confronted about being pope more than once you know.
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I didn't know that, Thursday. Where can I find the testimonies for the other occasions?
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Masonic Avatar-- hardly surprising that Pope Siri is not recognised by Nonno.