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Author Topic: Question on Mortal Sin  (Read 2911 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Question on Mortal Sin
« on: September 13, 2024, 12:43:47 AM »
Consider the following

A man willingly gets drunk, he knows drunkenness is a grave sin = he committed a mortal sin

A man willingly gets drunk, he does not know that drunkenness is a grave sin but a part of him feels getting drunk is wrong - did he commit a mortal sin?

A man willingly gets drunk, he thinks getting drunk is a good thing - did he commit a mortal sin?


Re: Question on Mortal Sin
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2024, 01:08:10 AM »
Consider the following

A man willingly gets drunk, he knows drunkenness is a grave sin = he committed a mortal sin

A man willingly gets drunk, he does not know that drunkenness is a grave sin but a part of him feels getting drunk is wrong - did he commit a mortal sin?

A man willingly gets drunk, he thinks getting drunk is a good thing - did he commit a mortal sin?
Yes on all 3.  The amount of culpability goes down with each successive story in your scenario but they are all mortal sins. 

The first scenario, he was taught that it is a mortal sin and this is a mercy from God to show what to avoid.  Choosing not to avoid it is a more culpable mortal sin.

The second scenario, this is the sting of conscience as he feels a sort of remorse with it, and that something is not right with it.  Still a mortal sin, his ignorance of the ramifications does not excuse him but he's less culpable in it than the first scenario.

The third scenario, they've either drowned their conscience in sin that they see this evil as a good, or they were never taught better as they were perhaps in an environment that celebrated this kind of thing.  They are still in mortal sin but depending on the circuмstance more culpable in the first example of this scenario and less culpable in the second example of this scenario.  Again, ignorance does not excuse a person from mortal sin but only the degree of culpability of it. 

Honestly though I doubt anyone is calling getting drunk a good thing entirely.  No one who gets drunk and wakes up with a hangover feeling like crap all day thinks it was a good thing until they feel better and do it again the next night or whenever.  Being steeped in sin drowns the conscience to where they see no sin at all where there is indeed sin. 

Same can be said of those in idolatrous pagan "religions," just because they were not introduced to The True God and His Faith does not mean they can avoid Hell by persisting in their idolatrous practices because they "didn't know any better." If this were not the case then Christians wouldn't have died and went through great lengths to convert the pagan peoples, nations, and tribes from Antiquity and beyond.  It would have been just better for them to allow these pagans to keep doing what they were doing.  Furthermore, God would have brought anyone obeying the Natural Law written in their hearts to The True Faith somehow.


Offline Stubborn

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Re: Question on Mortal Sin
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2024, 04:41:26 AM »
^^Very good answer!

Re: Question on Mortal Sin
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2024, 06:55:40 AM »
Thought I'd share this from pre-VII Moral Theology.  I had no idea how much there was to say about sobriety/drunkenness!  

Moral Theology, by John A. Mchugh and Charles J. Callan—A Project Gutenberg eBook

2474. Sobriety.—Sobriety in its strictest sense is a virtue that keeps one to the moderation of temperance in the liking for intoxicating liquors and in their use.
(a) Thus, sobriety is concerned with intoxicants, that is, with substances that produce a poisonous effect upon the nerves and brain. It is, therefore, a different virtue from abstemiousness, since it has to subdue a vice far more alluring and deleterious than gluttony. Alcohol has the same effect as a narcotic drug, for it benumbs both mind and body, sometimes to the point of insensibility, so that those who are under its influence are unable to think, speak or regulate their movements properly; but it gives a feeling of exhilaration and elevation and leaves behind it an insatiable craving, so that those who have once taken too much are very likely to repeat the act. Habitual intoxication breaks down both morals and health, and the toper goes to a disgraceful and early grave.
(b) Sobriety is concerned with liquors, that is, with beverages and medicines. But secondarily it also controls the appetite for narcotics, such as opium, chloroform, tobacco, and the desire to inhale strong liquors or vapors or gases which may produce intoxication.
2475. Obligation to Practise Sobriety.—Sobriety should be cultivated by all, but certain ones are more bound to it than others.
(a) Thus, on account of the greater physical evils of insobriety in their regard, the virtue should be especially cultivated by the young, the old, women, and persons of sedentary life. Young people are greatly harmed by too much alcohol, because it stunts their growth and affects them more seriously in mind and body than adults. The old have not the strength to throw off the poison of too much stimulation and are accordingly more injured. Women, being more excitable than men, are more easily affected by strong drink, and hence among the ancient Romans females abstained from wine. Finally, those who lead a sedentary or indoor life do not so easily get the poison out of their systems, and they feel the evil effects more than those who live out of doors or who engage in manual work. But there is no constitution, however iron it may be, that is not conquered in the end by alcoholism.
(b) On account of the greater spiritual ills that result from their insobriety, the virtue of soberness is more imperative in certain individuals. Thus, there are some who do greater spiritual harm to themselves by intoxication, for example, the young, whose passions are more easily inflamed, and females, who are more readily taken advantage of; and hence St. Paul recommends sobriety to women and young men particularly (I Tim., iii. 11; Tit., ii. 6). There are also some who do greater harm to others by intoxication, such as those who should instruct others (Tit., ii. 2), or who should give good example (I Tim., iii. 2), or who are rulers over the people (Prov., xxxi. 4).
2476. The Sins against Sobriety.—(a) The sin of excess may be called, for want of a special name, over-sobriety. It is committed by those who condemn all liking for or enjoyment of intoxicants as intrinsically evil (e.g., the Manichees, who said that wine was the gall of the devil); also by those who deny to themselves or others intoxicants when the use of them is necessary (e.g., the Encratites, who would allow only water for the Eucharist, or a fanatical teetotaler who would see a man die rather than give him a necessary dose of whisky).
(b) The sin of deficiency against sobriety is drunkenness, which is a voluntary and unjustified loss of the use of reason brought on by the consumption of too much intoxicating liquor. Drunkenness as a sin (active drunkenness), therefore, is to be distinguished from drunkenness as a condition (passive drunkenness). There is active drunkenness or the sin of drunkenness when intoxication is both voluntary and inexcusable; there is passive drunkenness or the mere state of drunkenness when one or the other of these two conditions is lacking. Usually those who sin by drunkenness seek the pleasure or forgetfulness which potations bring, but this is not essential, it seems, to the sin of inebriety; the malice of drunkenness is found not merely in the excessive pleasure, but especially in the subordination of spirit to the flesh and in the damage done to mind and body. Hence, a person who yields to the insistence of a banquet companion that he drink wine which is disgusting to him, is guilty of drunkenness if he takes too much.
2477. Cases of Mere Passive Drunkenness.—(a) Involuntary Drunkenness.—This occurs when there is invincible ignorance of fact (e.g., when an adult becomes intoxicated in good faith, because he had no reason to suspect that a cocktail or eggnog was very strong, or that his stomach was very weak), or of law (e.g., when a child gets drunk because he does not know that it is wrong to do so), or when there is lack of intention (e.g., when drink is forced on a person who does not want it).
(b) Excusable Drunkenness.—This occurs according to most theologians when there is a proportionately grave reason which justifies the evil of intoxication (see 103 sqq.). Such grave reasons are the saving of life (e.g., to escape death from snake bite), the cure of serious disease (e.g., cholera or influenza), the avoidance or mitigation of severe suffering (e.g., before a surgical operation, or after a very painful accident, or when there is no other means of helping a grave case of insomnia). In all these cases it is generally admitted that one may bring on unconsciousness by the use of anesthetics and sedatives (such as chloroform, ether, morphine, opium); and there is no reason why we should not view intoxicants also in the light of remedies which may be taken on the advice of physicians or other competent persons if other remedies cannot be had. Some theologians, however, refuse to excuse intoxication for any reason, since they regard drunkenness as intrinsically evil. In addition to the excuses just mentioned some also give that of escape from violent death, as when a burglar threatens to kill unless those present make themselves helpless by intoxication. But all agree that intoxication is not excused by ordinary advantages, such as escape from slight physical pain (e.g., toothache, seasickness), nor by the desire to avoid what can be avoided by other and more suitable means (e.g., worry about one’s troubles, an unpleasant meeting or conversation).
2478. The Morality of Total Abstinence.—(a) Obligation.—_Per se_, there is no obligation of abstaining from every or any kind of intoxicating beverage, either perpetually or temporarily, for food and drink were intended by God for the use of man and the moderate use of intoxicants, especially when the percentage of alcohol is light, is found by many to be a help to digestion, a refreshing stimulant, an excellent tonic and remedy. The example of Our Lord, who changed water into wine, who partook of wine at banquets, and who made wine one of the elements of the most sacred of rites, is proof that it is not sinful to drink strong liquors. This is also clearly taught in the Bible, which praises moderate drinking of wine (Ecclus., xxxi 36), recommends that a little be taken for a weak stomach (I Tim., v. 23), and declares that it is not what enters the mouth that defiles (Matt., xv. 2).
But, _per accidens_, there is an obligation of total abstinence when a greater good requires that one sacrifice intoxicants, whether the good be of self (e.g., when intoxicants are a serious danger to one’s health or morals, or when one is bound by vow or pledge to abstain from them) or of another (e.g., when the use of intoxicants gives serious scandal, Rom., xiv. 21). If the common safety is seriously imperilled through drunkenness, and obligatory abstinence can be enforced and will be the most reasonable method of correcting the evil, we can see no objection to prohibition laws. But whether these conditions exist in this or that particular place or case is a question of fact and has to be decided by impartial study.
(b) Lawfulness.—_Per se_, it is also permissible to abstain freely from all intoxicants, for the sake of some higher good (e.g., in order the better to apply the mind to studies, Ecclus., ii. 3), to silence calumnious tongues, to practise mortification, or to give good example. But, _per accidens_, it is not lawful to abstain when law (e.g., in the celebration of Mass) or necessity (e.g., a man dying from influenza who cannot be saved without whiskey) requires one to drink spirits. Examples of total abstinence are the Nazarites (Num., vi. 3), Samson (Judges, xiii. 7), Judith (Jud., xii. 2, 19), and John the Baptist (Luke, i. 15).
2479. Degrees of the Sin of Drunkenness.—(a) The sin of perfect or complete drunkenness is a voluntary excess in intoxicants carried so far that one loses temporarily the use of reason. This does not mean that one must become insensible or fall in a stupor or be unable to walk or have delirium tremens (dead drunk), but only that one loses the mental power to direct oneself morally, even though one still retains enough judgment to direct oneself physically (e.g., to cross the street or ascend the stairs safely, or to find one’s own quarters without help). The indications of perfect drunkenness are that the intoxicated person no longer distinguishes between right and wrong, perpetrates evils he would abhor in his right senses (e.g., beats his wife, runs down a pedestrian, blasphemes, or provokes quarrels), and cannot remember on sobering up the chief things he said or did while drunk.
(b) The sin of imperfect or incomplete drunkenness is a voluntary excess in intoxicants carried so far that one is somewhat confused in mind, but does not lose the use of reason. Hence, a person who is physically impeded though not mentally incapable on account of drink, who staggers, speaks incoherently, or sees uncertainly, but who knows that he should not beat his wife, or kill, or blaspheme, or quarrel, etc., is imperfectly drunk. There are also circuмstances that aggravate the evil of perfect or imperfect drunkenness. Thus, it is worse to be a toper or habitual drunkard than to be an occasional drunkard, and worse to go on a long spree than to be drunk only for an evening.
2480. Malice of the Sin of Drunkenness.—(a) Perfect drunkenness is a mortal sin, because it is a grave disorder to deprive oneself of moral judgment and thus expose oneself to the danger of perpetrating serious crimes and injuries. Moreover, it is a monstrous thing to despoil oneself unnecessarily of reason, the greatest natural good of man, and to make oneself for the time being a maniac, more like a beast than a human being. St. Paul declares that those who would put on Christ must put away drunkenness with other works of darkness (Rom., xiii. 13), and that drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal, v. 21). The opinion that perfect drunkenness is only venial if not habitual is now obsolete, and the opinion that perfect drunkenness is not mortal unless it lasts a considerable time (say, more than an hour) is commonly rejected; for the essential malice of drunkenness depends on its nature, not on its frequency or duration. A person who takes enough to make himself completely drunk and then escapes the consequences by artificial means (e.g., by using a drug or bringing on a vomit), does not sin mortally by drunkenness; but it seems that such a swinish person must sin mortally by reason of gluttony, injury to health, or scandal.
(b) Imperfect drunkenness is a venial sin, because the harm done is not considerable, for a tipsy man usually suffers nothing more than a slightly fuddled brain and some unsteadiness of body. Indeed, if wine or beer produces nothing more than a spirit of moderate hilarity and talkativeness, there is no sin.
Accidentally, imperfect drunkenness may be a mortal sin by reason of circuмstances, as when the person who is intoxicated gives great scandal on account of his position or office, or when the motive is to inflame passion or to commit other serious sin, or when the drunkenness is constantly repeated, or when the drunkard seriously neglects his business, family, or religious duties, or does other grave harm in consequence of his love of the bottle. In fact, there may be grave sin when one is not intoxicated at all, but is only a tippler. For the habit of drinking alcoholic beverages frequently (e.g., a nip or dram of whisky several times a day) is, according to medical authority, more harmful to the system (alcoholism) than intoxication at long intervals, especially if the portion is generous and the drinker is young.
2481. Drunkenness Compared with Other Sins.—(a) It is not the worst of sins. Sins against the theological virtues are more wicked, since they offend against divine good, whereas drunkenness is against human good. Many sins against the moral virtues are worse, since they injure a greater human good; for example, it is more harmful to take away life than to suspend the use of reason.
(b) It is one of the most ruinous of sins in its consequences (see 2472, 2473): first, for society, since a large percentage of crime, insanity, destitution, and misery is due to intemperance; secondly, to religion, since indulgence in one sensual pleasure sharpens the appetite for others, while creating a distaste for spiritual things, for effort and self-sacrifice; thirdly, to the intellect, for strong drink steals away the mind and memory; fourthly, to the body, for drunkenness not only prostrates the nervous system at the moment and has most painful after-effects in bursting headaches and disabled stomach, but it also causes permanent disasters (to brain, heart, nerves, kidneys, and liver), weakens the resistance to disease and brings on an early death; fifthly, to goods of fortune, since drunkards squander their all for drink; sixthly, to posterity, since intemperate parents transmit constitutional weakness to their children.
2482. Responsibility of Drunkard for Sins Committed While Intoxicated.—(a) If the drunkenness is fully voluntary and culpable, he is responsible for all the sins he foresaw or should have foreseen; for then these sins are willed in their cause (see 94 sqq.). Hence one who is accustomed while under the influence of liquor to blaspheme, betray secrets, quarrel, etc., should confess that he committed them while drunk, or that he was prepared to commit them in getting drunk. Under similar conditions one who misses Mass because he was drunk is responsible for the omission; one who is too drunk to attend to a business appointment and thereby causes loss to another is held to restitution. But, if grave sins are foreseen only in a very confused way, generally they will be imputable only as venial in themselves.
(b) If the drunkenness is fully voluntary and culpable, but the sins that ensued were not foreseen and could not humanly have been foreseen, the drunkard is excused at least in part from the guilt of these sins. Hence, a person who gets drunk for the first time or who usually sleeps after getting drunk is not responsible for the bad language he uses, if the thought of profanity was farthest from his mind when he became drunk. But if this person was not completely drunk and had some realization of the malice and scandal of bad language, he is at least venially guilty of profanity and scandal.
(c) If the drunkenness was involuntary, the drunken person is excused entirely in case of complete drunkenness; he is excused partially in case of incomplete drunkenness that did not exclude some realization of the sinfulness of what he said or did while intoxicated (see Canon 2201, Sec.3). In the civil law drunkenness is not held to be an excuse for a criminal act, but it may negative a specific intent (Robinson, _Elements of Law_, Sec.Sec.471, 525, 531).
2483. Material Cooperation in the Sin of Drunkenness—(a) If there is no grave reason for the cooperation, it is illicit. Mere hospitality is not a sufficient reason for furnishing a table with a great supply of strong drinks when some of the guests are dipsomaniacs, and mere good fellowship does not justify one who has been treated to order another round of treats if some of the drinkers are already inebriated. Parents or others in authority who get drunk before their subjects are guilty of scandal; those who encourage drunkenness are guilty of seduction; those who supply others with drink in order that these may become drunkards are guilty of formal cooperation.
(b) If there is a grave reason for cooperation, it is not illicit (1515 sqq., 1538 sqq.). Whether it is lawful to persuade another to get sinfully drunk in order to keep him from the commission of a greater evil (e.g., homicide or sacrilege), is a disputed question (see 1502).
2484. Is it lawful to make another person drunk when he will be guiltless of sin, and there is a grave reason?
(a) According to one opinion this is not lawful, because drunkenness, like impurity, is intrinsically evil and never permissible, since the end does not justify the means. Hence, just as it would be wrong to induce a drunken person to impurity, so it would also be wrong to intoxicate a child or an insane person (see 306).
(b) According to the common opinion, it is lawful to intoxicate oneself for a grave reason (see 2477 b), and hence also it is lawful to intoxicate another for a similar reason. Thus, if a criminal were about to blow up a building and destroy many lives, it would be permissible or even obligatory to put powerful intoxicants into his drink so as to make him helpless. If one were about to be roasted by cannibals and could escape by making the cannibals drunk, it would not be sinful to make them drunk.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Question on Mortal Sin
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2024, 08:15:42 AM »
So there are two aspects to every matter or moral theology, the objective and the subjective.

Two distinctions need to be made to properly answer the question.

Distinguo:

1) the objective (material) vs. the subjective (formal) aspect (somewhat conflated in the OP)
2) the degrees of "getting drunk" (as explained in the great source posted by 2Vermont)

So let's start with the objective aspect, what objectively constitutes sin, and we can come back to the degree of subjective culpability.

McHugh/Callan (cited above by 2Vermont) distinguish quite rightly between ...

1) Perfect Drunkenness
2) Imperfect Drunkenness

So, objectively, they classify perfect drunkenness as mortal and imperfect as venial.  Perfect drunkenness entails being so drunk that you've lost your capacity to make moral judgements (and would especially be indicated by individuals who perpetrate evils when drunk that they would otherwise not, such as getting physically violent, engaging in sins against the 6th/9th commandments, etc.).  Imperfect drunkenness is pretty much anything short of that and is classified here as venial sin.  Imperfect could be elevated to mortal due to additional circuмstances (involving scandal) if, say, you're a priest getting imperfectly drunk at a party, or a man of high station, etc.


So the second distinction entails the question of whether there may be a mitigation of the sin's gravity due to various degrees of ignorance, such that, for instance, an act of Perfect Drunkenness, objectively mortal, might become either a venial sin or no sin, due to ignorance, and an act of Imperfect Drunkenness, objectively venial, might become no sin or mortal sin.

While subjective dispositions are most commonly used to extenuate an individual's guilt, it can also exacerbate it.  If, for instance, I (wrongly) come to believe that even slight drunkenness is a mortal sin, but do it anyway, then I commit a mortal sin.  Materially/objectively it's only venial sin, but due to my ill-formed conscience, I elevate it formally/subjectively to a mortal sin.  This is why it's important to understand the distinctions.  We've had posters here criticize that "What's the point of hand-wringing about mortal vs. venial when we should avoid all sin?"  Of course we SHOULD avoid all sin, but we should also have properly informed consciences, and we don't want people formally committing mortal sin when their sins could have been venial had they been properly informed.  In fact, if you get too sloppy with the distinction, people might be committing mortal sins due to some objectively-venial situation that in weakness they are prone to falling into, but it wrongly becomes mortal for them.

In terms of ignorance MITIGATING/EXTENUATING guilt, McHugh/Callan also distinguish between material ignorance and formal ignorance.  Material ignorance ("ignorance of fact") means something like "I drank a lot of this punch but didn't know it had alcohol in it." or when Noah didn't know he'd get intoxicated from fermented grapes.  Formal ignorance ("ignorance of law") refers to not knowing that something is a mortal sin.

So here we finally get to what I think the import of OP's question is.  EWPJ just stated that that it's always mortal sin, but he failed to make the distinction between Perfect Drunkenness (mortal) and Imperfect Drunkenness (venial), for starters.  Then he does not believe that ignorance of law can mitigate guilt.

I disagree.

McHugh/Callan don't treat of this extensively but only in passing ... since I imagine there's a more general treatment of the question elsewhere, since it would apply equally to nearly all moral situations.

Quote
Cases of Mere Passive Drunkenness.—(a) Involuntary Drunkenness.—This occurs when there is invincible ignorance of fact (e.g., when an adult becomes intoxicated in good faith, because he had no reason to suspect that a cocktail or eggnog was very strong, or that his stomach was very weak), or of law (e.g., when a child gets drunk because he does not know that it is wrong to do so), or when there is lack of intention (e.g., when drink is forced on a person who does not want it).


So the principles are not laid out in great detail, but they imply that one's intention can be mitigated by ignorance of law (such as for a child).  I'm not sure what they'd say about an adult.

So, my personal opinion is that various evils that are known and knowable through the natural law are mortal sin even if the person is somehow "ignorant" of the law.  I would hold that Perfect Drunkenness, to the point where one experiences a loss or moral reason and engages in evil behavior, remains a mortal sin even if the person has somehow rationalized to himself that it's no sin (such a person likely doesn't believe in the concept of sin to begin with).  Imperfect Drunkenness, IMO, could be mitigated from venial sin to no sin among the ignorant, people who conclude (not entirely wrongly) that there's no harm in enjoying the fruits of create, and even Scripture say that "wine brings joy to the heart".  But I believe that Perfect Drunkenness, where you reduce yourself to an animal without the use of reason who can harm others and commit other grave sins ... is contrary to natural law, the nature of who we are as human beings with a rational soul and intellect.