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Offline s2srea

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« on: April 18, 2011, 08:47:12 AM »
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  • This is a question for everyone, not just sede's:

    Can a pope (in general) fall into heresy?

    If so, what does that mean?

    If not, why not?


    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 10:05:51 AM »
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  • Occult heretic, yes, Manifest heretic no, because of the Holy Ghost, which is why I believe these VII popes were Manifest heretics before they were elected, making the election invalid in the eyes of God.   The Holy Ghost never did guide them.  

    Of course that is my insight and opinion, I certainly am not a theologian as you all know.
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 10:23:11 AM »
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  • Pretty good synopsis by Ferrara below. I should point out though that St. Bellarmine held the opinion a Pope could not fall into formal heresy. An opinion I share. He did admit of the possibility he could be wrong, though, and opined what might happen if this were the case...

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    Judging Papal "Heresy"

          It is certainly inherently plausible that if the Pope were to become a heretic he would thereby cease to be Pope, for heretics are not Catholics, and non-Catholics cannot be Popes. As already noted, theologians commonly accept this theoretical possibility. St. Robert Bellarmine summed up the theological consensus thus: "A pope who is a manifest heretic ipso facto ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church …"7

            The problem, however, is two-fold: First, the Pope must have uttered a truly manifest heresy, which requires denial of an article of divine and Catholic faith, such as the Trinity, not just any error against the teaching of the Church. Second, the Pope must, in uttering that heresy, actually be guilty of the personal sin of heresy in that he knowingly and pertinaciously (obstinately) denies an article of faith. One who thinks his false belief is consistent with the Catholic faith cannot be guilty of the sin of formal heresy. He is only a material heretic who remains a member of the Church.

          Given the maxim Prima Sedes a nemine iudicatur — "no one may judge the First See" — how is any isolated member of the Church to determine on his own that the conditions for formal heresy have been met? That no one may judge the Pope — that is, his personal sin of heresy as opposed to the heretical import of his words — is a fundamental truth of our religion, as well as a dictate of reason. This is because by the will of the Church’s divine Founder there is no office on earth above the papal office.

          That being the case, how would isolated members of the Church know for certain that a Pope who uttered a heresy had not lost his mind, made some awful mistake in his choice of words, been subjected to some compulsion such as a threat on his life, or had somehow persuaded himself that his erroneous opinion was not contrary to the Faith? Absent a procedure to investigate the papal statement and the surrounding circuмstances, including direct questioning of the Pope himself with an opportunity to retract, it would be impossible to judge the matter fully and fairly. Indeed, even Martin Luther was summoned to defend his views and then given sixty days to retract his 41 distinct heresies before finally suffering the sentence of excommunication.8 Who exactly would afford the Pope this due process? Or are we to believe that the holder of the papal office is entitled to less justice than the likes of Martin Luther?

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 11:25:14 AM »
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  • Quote
           The problem, however, is two-fold: First, the Pope must have uttered a truly manifest heresy, which requires denial of an article of divine and Catholic faith, such as the Trinity, not just any error against the teaching of the Church.


    What on earth does this mean?  "...not just any error against the teaching of the Church."  No.  It has to be a special kind of error that meets with the approval of Mr. Ferrara.  

    I'll agree that a error against the nature of the Trinity would qualify, but why doesn't an error against the nature of the Church herself qualify?  

    Sedevacantists come to their conclusions based on the evidence while anti-sedevacantists simply change the argument whenever an argument is shown to be too weak to withstand scrutiny.  Note that the declaration from many Conciliar prelates that Muslims and Catholics worship the same God (though the Muslim teachings about their god specifically excludes Jesus Christ) though one is Trinitarian and the other is not.  But, you see, that heresy against the Trinity does not pass the threshhold for Mr. Ferrara.  (Please note that in this particular example, I'm not speaking of Benedict 16 as I'm not sure if he has actually made this argument.  I am speaking, however, of all the bishops and cardinals that Ferrara would not accept as having excommunicated themselves.)

    Offline Darcy

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    « Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 02:23:41 PM »
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  • Because a Pope cannot fall into manifest heresy, any "pope" who espouses a heresy, like man is God or there is salvation outside the Catholic Church, or there is no Transubstantiation, or Jesus was not God....
    can NOT be the Pope.