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Author Topic: Protestants are not Christians  (Read 9928 times)

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Offline Jehanne

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Protestants are not Christians
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2013, 07:18:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    Quote from: Daegus

    Only Catholics are Christians. No one else.

    That disqualifies ALL Protestants, ALL Eastern "Orthodox", ALL cults like the Mormons and JWs, and ESPECIALLY the Novus Ordo sectarian religion, which is not Catholic at all.



    How are Orthodox not Christian? They believe in Christ as Lord and Savior; they believe Christ is the 2nd Person in the Holy Trinity-One God; and their Sacraments are valid; and their Liturgy and spirituality is certainly Catholic. So how are they not Christian?


    In Unam Sanctam, Pope Boniface VIII stated:

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    Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.'


    Likewise, at the Fifth Lateran Council, Pope Leo X stated:

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    Moreover, since subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful, as we are taught by the testimony of both sacred scripture and the holy fathers, and as is declared by the constitution of pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, also our predecessor, which begins Unam sanctam, we therefore, with the approval of the present sacred council, for the salvation of the souls of the same faithful, for the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff and of this holy see, and for the unity and power of the church, his spouse, renew and give our approval to that constitution, but without prejudice to the declaration of pope Clement V of holy memory, which begins Meruit.


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    For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.


    Pope Pius XII recognized Unam Santam:

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    But we must not think that He rules only in a hidden or extraordinary manner. On the contrary, our Divine Redeemer also governs His Mystical Body in a visible and normal way through His Vicar on earth. You know, Venerable Brethren, that after He had ruled the "little flock" Himself during His mortal pilgrimage, Christ our Lord, when about to leave this world and return to the Father, entrusted to the Chief of the Apostles the visible government of the entire community He had founded. Since He was all wise He could not leave the body of the Church He had founded as a human society without a visible head. Nor against this may one argue that the primacy of jurisdiction established in the Church gives such a Mystical Body two heads. For Peter in virtue of his primacy is only Christ's Vicar; so that there is only one chief Head of this Body, namely Christ, who never ceases Himself to guide the Church invisible, though at the same time He rules it visibly, through him who is His representative on earth. After His glorious Ascension into heaven this Church rested not on Him alone, but on Peter too, its visible foundation stone. That Christ and His Vicar constitute one only Head is the solemn teaching of Our predecessor of immortal memory Boniface VIII in the Apostolic Letter Unam Sanctam; and his successors have never ceased to repeat the same. (Mystici Corporis, 40)


    Offline Maizar

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    Protestants are not Christians
    « Reply #61 on: May 12, 2013, 07:18:51 AM »
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    If they are only nominally Christian how is it they have many Catholic values and beliefs? Most of my faith is based on what Protestants taught me.I know they are wrong about being saved but I mean the other stuff, like how to live, prayer, morals, things like that.


    I didn't say they are only nominally Christian.  Maybe I'm using the wrong word. I don't mean to say that they are Christian in name only, because they often have Baptism and other beliefs and practices that are Christian.

    What I mean to say is that they take the name Christian, but because they are not (visibly) members of the Church, they are not true Christians.


    It is a problem of semantics and degrees. There are two approaches, the exclusive approach (no benefit of the doubt, which is safe but not useful outside Trad circles) and the inclusive approach (benefit of the doubt). Which is right? When I need to make the distinction, it's solved by using the term Catholic as opposed to Christian, but even now we have to say Traditional Catholic because of the mess of the NO Church.

    It is recognized that a valid Baptism confers the possibility of salvation and provides partiality of membership to the Catholic Church, at least at its first moment. But Jesus and the Popes have taught that there is more than that required to have eternal life.

    I don't like saying that Protestants aren't Christians because it closes the door in most cases to being a useful apologist with them. They are heretics, so the path their soul is on is pretty clear cut. Do we need to worry about this distinction? After all, we don't formally call ourselves Christian but Catholic, since we know that the word Christian lacks precision.

    We aren't calling them Saints, after all!


    Offline Jehanne

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    Protestants are not Christians
    « Reply #62 on: May 12, 2013, 07:32:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maizar
    We aren't calling them Saints, after all!


    Judging whether an individual Protestant is a heretic or not would have to made on an individual basis, and only the Church herself can make such judgments, which she is no longer making, at least on a formal, public basis.  Ditto for the schismatic Orthodox.  Is heresy or schism grave sins?  Per the Catechism of the Catholic Church and 1983 Code of Canon Law, they are:

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    1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.


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    1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.


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    Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.
      §2. If contumacy of long duration or the gravity of scandal demands it, other penalties can be added, including dismissal from the clerical state.


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    Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

    2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

    Offline Maizar

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    Protestants are not Christians
    « Reply #63 on: May 12, 2013, 07:46:25 AM »
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    Judging whether an individual Protestant is a heretic or not would have to made on an individual basis, and only the Church herself can make such judgments, which she is no longer making, at least on a formal, public basis.  Ditto for the schismatic Orthodox.  Is heresy or schism grave sins?  Per the Catechism of the Catholic Church and 1983 Code of Canon Law, they are:


    Are you saying that the Church's statements in Councils past are abrogated?

    Yet Schism, although Protestants are schismatics as are the Orthodox, is an act which not every member of those sects has reasonably committed until he has undergone the mental process of choosing error.

    Offline Clancularius

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    Protestants are not Christians
    « Reply #64 on: May 12, 2013, 09:16:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maizar
    I don't like saying that Protestants aren't Christians because it closes the door in most cases to being a useful apologist with them. They are heretics, so the path their soul is on is pretty clear cut. Do we need to worry about this distinction? After all, we don't formally call ourselves Christian but Catholic, since we know that the word Christian lacks precision.

    Actually, in all papal docuмents, the word "Christian" formally refers to us Catholics.



    Offline Jehanne

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    Protestants are not Christians
    « Reply #65 on: May 12, 2013, 09:54:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maizar
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    Judging whether an individual Protestant is a heretic or not would have to made on an individual basis, and only the Church herself can make such judgments, which she is no longer making, at least on a formal, public basis.  Ditto for the schismatic Orthodox.  Is heresy or schism grave sins?  Per the Catechism of the Catholic Church and 1983 Code of Canon Law, they are:


    Are you saying that the Church's statements in Councils past are abrogated?


    No, although some statements are disciplinary:

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    CANON 29 -- "We forbid under penalty of anathema that that deadly and God-detested art of stingers and archers be in the future exercised against Christians and Catholics." (Second Lateran Council)


    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran2.asp

    Quote from: Maizar
    Yet Schism, although Protestants are schismatics as are the Orthodox, is an act which not every member of those sects has reasonably committed until he has undergone the mental process of choosing error.


    Agreed.