Author Topic: Protestant Work Ethic Vs Catholic Leisure (Read 453 times)

Miser Peccator · « **on:** May 11, 2021, 11:14:04 PM »

What is the Catholic view on leisure or recreation time and how does it contrast to the Protestant work ethic?

SimpleMan · « **Reply #1 on:** May 12, 2021, 01:03:25 AM »

Quote from: Miser Peccator on May 11, 2021, 11:14:04 PM

What is the Catholic view on leisure or recreation time and how does it contrast to the Protestant work ethic?

That's a pretty broad question, and one I'm sure has had much ink (and now electrons) spilled on its account, but here goes my "nutshell" understanding of it, for what that's worth:

Quite in contrast to their doctrine of sola fide, in which works are utterly unnecessary, when it comes to temporal affairs, the Protestant idea is "if you didn't earn it, you don't really deserve it", and hard work and industriousness demonstrate that one is an upright, respectable person. (Much is made in Protestant circles of being "respectable", an outward trait that the Freemasons cultivate with a vengeance.) The Catholic view is more that, while an able-bodied man can and should work, all things ultimately come from God (Protestants would not deny this much), and that life is to be enjoyed gratefully, whether fortune just comes your way, or whether you have worked for it, or both. Supposedly the Protestant dislike of gambling comes from the Roman soldiers having cast lots for the garments of Jesus, but I suspect it goes deeper than that --- "you got something you didn't work for". There is also the idea that greater material prosperity in life shows that you are in God's favor. There is a whole "prosperity gospel" (which is not part of "reformation" theology in the least) that fits the materialistic American lifestyle and mentality like hand in glove. And there is the sneaking suspicion that "if you're poor, you must be morally defective in some way", because success and hard work mean that you're a good person, that you love God, and that God loves you.

I see Catholics as being able more to savor and enjoy the simple pleasures of daily life, and good food and drink are not seen as bad things. An example of the Protestant "suspicion of the enjoyable" can be seen in how they will refer to delicacies, cakes, pies, cookies, and so on as "decadent". There is a bakery near me that advertises their cakes as "sinful". With that attitude, I wouldn't have one of their cakes if they gave me one! The undertone is that "something this good has to be wrong". Incidentally, I think it is a black-owned bakery, which makes matters even more odd, black Southerners are usually not known for disliking or shunning good food. They are probably just using a turn of phrase that they think is catchy or something, and would be dumbfounded that someone would actually pick it apart and take offense at it.

I'm not sure the concept of dolce far niente --- "sweet doing nothing" --- would find a welcome home among Dutch Calvinists or wealthy American Episcopalians.

Miser Peccator · « **Reply #2 on:** May 12, 2021, 02:35:21 AM »

Quote from: SimpleMan on May 12, 2021, 01:03:25 AM

That's a pretty broad question, and one I'm sure has had much ink (and now electrons) spilled on its account, but here goes my "nutshell" understanding of it, for what that's worth:

Quite in contrast to their doctrine of sola fide, in which works are utterly unnecessary, when it comes to temporal affairs, the Protestant idea is "if you didn't earn it, you don't really deserve it", and hard work and industriousness demonstrate that one is an upright, respectable person. (Much is made in Protestant circles of being "respectable", an outward trait that the Freemasons cultivate with a vengeance.) The Catholic view is more that, while an able-bodied man can and should work, all things ultimately come from God (Protestants would not deny this much), and that life is to be enjoyed gratefully, whether fortune just comes your way, or whether you have worked for it, or both. Supposedly the Protestant dislike of gambling comes from the Roman soldiers having cast lots for the garments of Jesus, but I suspect it goes deeper than that --- "you got something you didn't work for". There is also the idea that greater material prosperity in life shows that you are in God's favor. There is a whole "prosperity gospel" (which is not part of "reformation" theology in the least) that fits the materialistic American lifestyle and mentality like hand in glove. And there is the sneaking suspicion that "if you're poor, you must be morally defective in some way", because success and hard work mean that you're a good person, that you love God, and that God loves you.

I see Catholics as being able more to savor and enjoy the simple pleasures of daily life, and good food and drink are not seen as bad things. An example of the Protestant "suspicion of the enjoyable" can be seen in how they will refer to delicacies, cakes, pies, cookies, and so on as "decadent". There is a bakery near me that advertises their cakes as "sinful". With that attitude, I wouldn't have one of their cakes if they gave me one! The undertone is that "something this good has to be wrong". Incidentally, I think it is a black-owned bakery, which makes matters even more odd, black Southerners are usually not known for disliking or shunning good food. They are probably just using a turn of phrase that they think is catchy or something, and would be dumbfounded that someone would actually pick it apart and take offense at it.

I'm not sure the concept of dolce far niente --- "sweet doing nothing" --- would find a welcome home among Dutch Calvinists or wealthy American Episcopalians.

Thank you, SM.
That's pretty much what I thought but you added some interesting insights.
There are some trads who say that hobbies are a waste of time:

I think he makes some good points here about the over emphasis on hobbies, however...
My understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that leisure is a part of Catholic culture which should be enjoyed in moderation and according to your state in life so the life of a family is not necessarily the same as the life of a contemplative religious.
I have read that St Teresa of Avila incorporated two periods of recreation a day into her rule and insisted on having fun. :)

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** May 12, 2021, 04:02:25 AM »

Once you accept that you can do whatever you want and still be saved, you need some way to identify the REAL good people from the bad people.
Everyone can't be a good guy on the same level. It's obvious in real life that some guys are "gooder" than others.

Plus, you want to know if YOU'RE going to be saved. So how do you know? Because God blessed you with material things, of course!

So everyone scampers about trying to ensure they're one of the Elect. I present to you, the protestant work ethic!

It's a whole different mindset than the Catholic one.

SimpleMan · « **Reply #4 on:** May 12, 2021, 08:02:06 AM »

Quote from: Matthew on May 12, 2021, 04:02:25 AM

Once you accept that you can do whatever you want and still be saved, you need some way to identify the REAL good people from the bad people.
Everyone can't be a good guy on the same level. It's obvious in real life that some guys are "gooder" than others.

Plus, you want to know if YOU'RE going to be saved. So how do you know? Because God blessed you with material things, of course!

So everyone scampers about trying to ensure they're one of the Elect. I present to you, the protestant work ethic!

It's a whole different mindset than the Catholic one.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but having been immersed ears-deep in Protestantism and evangelical culture from Day One (we were not churchgoers but the part of the country we lived in was positively drenched in that mindset), I'm not so sure that's how they think. In such a culture, it's just a "given" that everything in your life will be about material welfare, and that any education or culture for education's or culture's sake is an unaccountable waste of time. Similarly, worrying about one's salvation is not necessary, because if you're "saved", then you know you're going to heaven, no further explanation needed.

Did you ever notice how when you go to visit an American, sometime during the visit, they will show you their house, walk around and point out what is in each room? In many cultures, that would be seen as bizarre, bragging, or both. When relatives from "back home" have come to visit my family (nobody ever visits me, we've just drifted apart too far, over too long a period of time, four decades), they get the "grand tour" --- my father built a very nice house at the beach, which he sold for a handsome profit --- which leads me to think "are you coming to see me, or are you coming to see my stuff? --- house, meet Cousin Charlie, Cousin Charlie, meet house, here's the furniture, say hello, furniture, oh, look at my backyard, backyard, here's your Cousin Charlie". In all of this, I don't think there's a thing malignant or even consciously materialistic, it's just something taken for granted.

Paul Fussell in his semi-humorous book Class notes that people of means or good breeding don't compliment other people's belongings, and I'd never thought of it that way before, but he was entirely right. Admiring someone else's sporty car, or fine bass boat, or high-quality firearms, that's one thing, but nattering on about one's belongings, it's not classy and it's not Catholic. It's a hard thing to describe. Will those toys help you be happy in heaven, or keep you cool and comfortable in hell?

DigitalLogos · « **Reply #5 on:** May 12, 2021, 08:36:41 AM »

I personally think this idea that hobbies and recreation are bad stems from scrupulousity, rather than anything the Saints taught. That video by Ascent of Mount Carmel is a good example of why I unsubscribed from that channel long ago and also why it's dangerous to follow lay theologians such as him.

Moderation is a Catholic method of dealing with the world, we aren't Puritans. You can enjoy the world for the glory of God, as He made the world good and His Goodness is reflected in all creatures. Over-indulgence in these goods is where you begin to fall into vice, and since our current era is purely fixated on recreation and pleasure above all else (a result of many being simply over-worked as it is), I can sympathize with a rigoristic reaction. But, rigorism is not the normal Catholic means, especially not for laymen in the world. Recall that a lot of the Saints that people like to use to emphasize this rigorous view of the world were in convents and monastic orders, so their Rule emphasized a rejection of the world far beyond what is called to those in a married state or operating in the world. I myself have fallen into times of depression because often it seems like you need to be a monastic in order to be saved. But this isn't true at all. You need to do the will of the Father according to your state in life. Since I am a husband and a father, I am permitted more time for recreation than a monastic, but also I have to interact with the world while trying to form and care for my family in the Faith (which has been exceedingly difficult in my case). And because of this, I have recreation time apart from work.

"Blessed are all they that fear the Lord: that walk in his ways. For thou shalt eat the labours of thy hands: blessed art thou, and it shall be well with thee." - Ps. 127:1-2

"It is vain for you to rise before light, rise ye after you have sitten, you that eat the bread of sorrow. When he shall give sleep to his beloved" - Ps. 126:2

Christ Himself even took time for recreation, recall in the Gospel of St. Luke: "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and you say: He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking: and you say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a drinker of wine, a friend of publicans and sinners." 7:33-34

SimpleMan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 12, 2021, 09:36:58 AM »

You have to take time for at least some recreation and leisure, and for many people, that entails hobbies. It's part of the self-care and refreshment of one's mind and soul that is the proper stewardship of the temple of the Holy Ghost. Did not Almighty God set aside one day a week for rest? Did He Himself not rest on that day?

Cultures that embrace neither Christianity nor, to be fair, even Judaism, sometimes have a difficult time comprehending how 14 percent of one's time --- one day out of seven --- can be set aside as "down time". I have to think that any halfway serious Hindu, for instance, would look at us and say "do you realize that you are pissing away 14 percent of income and productivity that you could be profiting from?" --- I will give them this much, they are hard workers, and their median net household income puts white Americans to shame. I had a Hindu guy at work one time kind of "look at me funny" when I told him I didn't wish to come back in the office on Sunday to work on the computer system, he was also incredulous when I told him that my father (then in his 70s) was retired and didn't work --- "you mean he doesn't work at all?". Good guy, just a different value system, a system that didn't admit of someone not working, or not working on one given day of the week.

Author Topic: Protestant Work Ethic Vs Catholic Leisure (Read 453 times)

Miser Peccator

Protestant Work Ethic Vs Catholic Leisure

SimpleMan

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Miser Peccator

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Matthew

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SimpleMan

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DigitalLogos

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SimpleMan

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