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Offline Matthew

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Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
« on: November 22, 2018, 07:43:14 PM »
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  • Here's what I was thinking:

    What if we found an island of actual nαzιs (a colony descended from nαzιs in WW2) and they still acted/believed like the nαzιs. They shoot everyone who tries to land on the island. Do we A) attack the island, or B) "respect their space" and leave them alone?

    Most people aren't for invading/conquering this island of bloodthirsty savages who have no respect for life or International Law (respecting life of innocents, women/children, ambassadors under flag of truce, foolish over-zealous Protestant missionaries, etc.)

    Does such an evil and warlike people have a right to exist, or should someone subdue and conquer them?

    Regardless of the Catholic doctrine that applies to this situation, those in the world are being hypocrites by not attacking them. If the USA discovered a modern-day nαzι colony (who still believed and acted as WW2-era nαzιs) you know they'd invade and subdue it. They'd set up some kind of protectorate, etc. and they'd destroy the whole colony if that's what it took to subdue them.

    Why are nαzιs evil enough to destroy, but not a "primitive" bloodthirsty uncivilized tribe? Is it because Rousseau taught us how innocent and good the "primitive savage" is?

    What if these bloodthirsty savages said they wanted to kill all Jєωs, instead of "all outsiders"? Would people feel differently then?

    I literally bet $50,000 (double or nothing) that they would.
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #1 on: November 22, 2018, 07:51:16 PM »
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  • Ignorance of good  vs. choosing evil over good?   Still, the Prottie was a zealous idiot.  There's no virtue in self-inflicted martyrdom.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #2 on: November 22, 2018, 07:59:13 PM »
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  • Ignorance of good  vs. choosing evil over good?   Still, the Prottie was a zealous idiot.  There's no virtue in self-inflicted martyrdom.

    I agree that he was foolish.

    He sang Protty "praise" hymns at them. They probably thought they were war or victory songs, since they sound very emotional and the savages can't understand the lyrics.

    Now a reserved, black cassock-wearing, holy priest with Gregorian chant might have had a better chance (even so, plenty of priests were martyred by savage tribes over the centuries).
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    Online Nadir

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #3 on: November 22, 2018, 09:31:39 PM »
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  • Your post sounds like a hypothetical situation, Matthew. But then Seraphina seems to be in the know, so obviously it's not. Can you give a reference please?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #4 on: November 22, 2018, 11:32:03 PM »
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  • May his soul and the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. Amen.
    :pray: :pray: :pray:


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 12:32:30 AM »
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  • .
    Your post sounds like a hypothetical situation, Matthew. But then Seraphina seems to be in the know, so obviously it's not.
    Can you give a reference please?
    .
    It's like a game of telephone where each post adds more to the story. 
    .
    There was no mention of any "Prottie" singing hymns, making moral choices or exercising zeal in the OP. 
    .
    Nor was it explained who else was involved in the $50K "bet." It's not a bet if only one person is involved.
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    Online Nadir

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 01:22:26 AM »
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  • So who is Poche praying for. 
    As Matthew would say: my bad! 
    Correction: for whom is Poche praying?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline TheJovialInquisitor

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 02:21:48 AM »
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  • So who is Poche praying for.
    As Matthew would say: my bad!
    Correction: for whom is Poche praying?
    Probably the Prot.
    Anyway, the reason that nobody cares about this, is because nobody actually cares about said principles to start with.  All the sacred principles of the modern world are just ad-hoc rationalizations to justify their selfish, degenerate, and evil behavior, which is why literally no one cares if they violate those principles one hundred times over.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 02:39:55 AM »
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  • So who is Poche praying for...
    As Matthew would say: my bad!

    Correction:   For whom is Poche praying?
    .
    He has "...the faithful departed..." so that leaves out the Protestant.  
    .
    Protestants, being outside the Church where there is no salvation, are not among faithful, whether or not departed.
    .
    At Thanksgiving Dinner today, the host asked everyone to hold hands in a circle around the table, while he said some invocations.
        He's a prominent Novus Ordo community member, surely keeping up with the latest trends at their meetings.
        No mention of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Blessed Trinity, grace, or blessing the food, just "thanks" which belongs AFTER the meal.
        Note:  You can't make the sign of the cross when you're holding hands in a circle around the table. Oh, with bowed heads, of course.
    .
    Another Catholic man present spoke to me later about that.
        He described another scene, elsewhere, when Protestants looked askance at him when he made the sign of the cross.
    .
    I told him, Protestants are going to be shocked when they approach the Pearly Gates only to find out that
        St. Peter only admits those who make the sign of the cross.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 03:08:51 AM »
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  • .
    Perhaps this is the mystery story that belongs in the OP?
    .
    .
    Isolated Tribe Kills American With Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island
    .
    .
    By Jeffrey Gettleman, Hari Kumar and Kai Schultz

    Nov. 21, 2018

    NY Times 
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/21/world/asia/american-killed-andaman-island-tribe.html

    NEW DELHI — John Allen Chau seemed to know that what he was about to do was extremely dangerous.

    .
    Mr. Chau, an American thought to be in his 20s, was floating in a kayak off a remote island in the Andaman Sea. He was about to set foot on one of the most sealed-off parts of India, an island inhabited by a small, enigmatic and highly isolated tribe whose members have killed outsiders for simply stepping on their shore.

    .
    Fishermen warned him not to go. Few outsiders had ever been there. And Indian government regulations clearly prohibited any interaction with people on the island, called North Sentinel.

    .
    But Mr. Chau pushed ahead, setting off in his kayak, which he had packed with a Bible. After that, it is a bit of a mystery what happened.

    .
    But the police say one thing is clear: Mr. Chau did not survive.

    .
    On Wednesday, the Indian authorities said that Mr. Chau had been shot with bows and arrows by tribesmen when he got on shore and that his body was still on the island. Fishermen who helped take Mr. Chau to North Sentinel told the police that they had seen tribesmen dragging his body on the beach.

    .


    [Read about T.N. Pandit, an anthropologist who spent time with the Jarawa and Sentinelese tribes in the Andaman Sea.]

    .
    It was a “misplaced adventure,’’ said Dependra Pathak, the police chief in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. “He certainly knew it was off limits.’’

    .
    Mr. Pathak said Mr. Chau, believed to be 26 or 27 and from Washington State, may have been trying to convert the islanders to Christianity. Right before he left in his kayak, Mr. Chau gave the fishermen a long note in case he did not come back. In it, police officials said, he had written that Jesus had bestowed him with the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth.

    .
    On Wednesday, in a post on Mr. Chau’s Instagram account, his family expressed deep sadness and said he was “a beloved son, brother, uncle, and best friend to us. To others he was a Christian missionary, a wilderness EMT, an international soccer coach, and a mountaineer.”

    .
    They also seemed to hold out some hope that he had survived, saying the report of his death was unconfirmed. They also said they forgave those who might have been responsible for his death.

    ..
    Family members did not respond to phone messages.

    .
    The Andaman and nearby Nicobar Islands are beautiful, palm-fringed specks ringed by coral in the Indian Ocean. The government controls access very carefully; of the more than 500 islands, many areas are off limits.

    .
    On Nov. 14, Mr. Chau hired a fishing boat in Port Blair, the main city in the Andamans, to take him to North Sentinel. He waited until darkness to set off, police officials said, so he would not be detected by the authorities.

    .
    T. N. Pandit, an anthropologist who visited North Sentinel several times between 1967 and 1991, said the Sentinelese people — who officially number around 50 and who hunt with spears and arrows fashioned from scraps of metal that wash up on their shores — were more hostile to outsiders than other indigenous communities living in the Andamans.

    .
    John Allen Chau, right, with Casey Prince, the founder of the nonprofit Ubuntu Football Academy in Cape Town, South Africa, where Mr. Chau was a coach.

    Credit

    Sarah Prince/Associated Press
    .
    Image

    John Allen Chau, right, with Casey Prince, the founder of the nonprofit Ubuntu Football Academy in Cape Town, South Africa, where Mr. Chau was a coach.CreditSarah Prince/Associated Press

    .
    Once, when Mr. Pandit’s expedition offered a pig to the Sentinelese, two members of the tribe walked to the edge of the beach, “speared it” and buried it in the sand.

    .
    During another encounter, Mr. Pandit was separated from his colleagues and left alone in the water. A young tribesman on the beach pulled out a knife and “made a sign as if he was carving out my body.”

    .
    “He threatened; I understood,” Mr. Pandit said. “Contact was different with the Sentinelese,” he added, noting that the Jarawa, another tribe, “invited us to come ashore and sang songs.”

    .
    Being left alone was very important for the Sentinelese, said Stephen Corry, the director of Survival International, a group that protects the rights of indigenous tribal peoples around the world.
    .
    “This tragedy should never have been allowed to happen,” Mr. Corry said in a statement, adding that the Indian government must protect the tribe from “further invaders.”

    .
    Gift-giving expeditions to the Sentinelese stopped in 1996. The Indian Navy now enforces a buffer zone to keep people away. In 2006, the Sentinelese killed two fishermen who had accidentally drifted on shore.

    .
    According to the fishermen who helped Mr. Chau, they motored for several hours from Port Blair to North Sentinel. Mr. Chau waited until the next morning, at daybreak, to try to get ashore.

    .
    He put his kayak in the water less than half a mile out and paddled toward the island.

    .
    The fishermen said that tribesmen had shot arrows at him and that he had retreated. He apparently tried several more times to reach the island over the next two days, the police say, offering gifts such as a small soccer ball, fishing line and scissors. But on the morning of Nov. 17, the fishermen said they saw the islanders with his body.

    .
    The seven people who helped Mr. Chau reach the island have been arrested and charged with culpable homicide not amounting to murder and with violating rules protecting aboriginal tribes.

    .
    In the Instagram post, the family asked for the release of the seven and said he had “ventured out on his own free will.”

    .
    Another case has been registered against “unknown persons” for killing Mr. Chau. But in the past, the authorities have said that it is virtually impossible to prosecute members of the protected tribes because of the area’s inaccessibility and the Indian government’s decision not to interfere in their lives.
    .
    In a blog post from several years ago, Mr. Chau said he had coached soccer, worked for AmeriCorps and that he was “an explorer at heart.” The Indian police said he had visited the Andamans at least three times.

    .
    When asked what was the top of his must-do list, Mr. Chau had written on the blog: “Going back to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands in India is on the top — there’s so much to see and do there!”

    .
    Follow Jeffrey Gettleman, Hari Kumar and Kai Schultz on Twitter: @gettleman, @HariNYT and @Kai_Schultz.

    .
    Ayesha Venkataraman contributed reporting. Kirk Johnson contributed reporting from Seattle and Megan Specia from New York.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #10 on: November 23, 2018, 04:02:43 AM »
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  • Here's what I was thinking:

    What if we found an island of actual nαzιs (a colony descended from nαzιs in WW2) and they still acted/believed like the nαzιs. They shoot everyone who tries to land on the island. Do we A) attack the island, or B) "respect their space" and leave them alone?

    Most people aren't for invading/conquering this island of bloodthirsty savages who have no respect for life or International Law (respecting life of innocents, women/children, ambassadors under flag of truce, foolish over-zealous Protestant missionaries, etc.)

    Does such an evil and warlike people have a right to exist, or should someone subdue and conquer them?

    Regardless of the Catholic doctrine that applies to this situation, those in the world are being hypocrites by not attacking them. If the USA discovered a modern-day nαzι colony (who still believed and acted as WW2-era nαzιs) you know they'd invade and subdue it. They'd set up some kind of protectorate, etc. and they'd destroy the whole colony if that's what it took to subdue them.

    Why are nαzιs evil enough to destroy, but not a "primitive" bloodthirsty uncivilized tribe? Is it because Rousseau taught us how innocent and good the "primitive savage" is?

    What if these bloodthirsty savages said they wanted to kill all Jєωs, instead of "all outsiders"? Would people feel differently then?

    I literally bet $50,000 (double or nothing) that they would.
    .
    It seems the isolated islanders are thought to be uniquely preserved subjects for anthropological interest, and since the islands are possessions of India, being within their 200-mile national shoreline limit, the essentially pagan India doesn't see much difference between the savagery of the natives and the backward or even demonic false religions of Hinduism or Mohammedism. 
    .
    Therefore, the country that owns the islands (India) isn't about to interfere with the islanders' internal affairs any more than India would like to have outsiders (Europeans, Americans or whatever) interfere with India's internal affairs. 
    .
    Curiously, this situation reminds one of the world our missionaries had faced, such as St. Isaac Jogues and companions (St. Rene Goupil, St. Noel Chabanel, St. Jean de Brebeuf, St. Antony Daniel, St. John de Lalande, St. Charles Garnier, St. Gabriel Lalemant). They had to contend with vicious, even cannibalistic heathen, in their attempt to bring the truth of God to them, even though many of them didn't want any part of it. 
    .
    From an anthropological point of view, an island full of nαzιs wouldn't be the same category of place, since the nαzιs had come from a knowledge of Christianity and had reverted to the barbarism of non-Christianity, so they would be apostates. 
    .
    Field researchers have tried to study the social habits and societal structures of such enclaves of remote people, with all kinds of various objectives in mind. They bemoan the enormous loss of historical information and awareness that occurred when the White man wiped out indigenous tribes of American Indians all across North America. And they want to make sure the same loss doesn't occur in whatever is left of remote clusters of indigenous peoples today. There are said to be many various such isolated tribes in the jungles of the Amazon, mostly Brazil, people who have no awareness of modern technology or culture -- objectively speaking, Christianity in its true form, that is, Catholicism, and the profusion of knowledge that goes along with it, philosophical, technological and scientific.

    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #11 on: November 23, 2018, 04:20:25 AM »
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  • .
    Another source
    .
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/11/21/american-believed-killed-isolated-tribe-north-sentinel-island-india/2076608002/
    .
    Survival International, an organization that works for the rights of tribal people, said the killing of the American should prompt Indian authorities to properly protect the lands of the Sentinelese and other Andaman tribes.
    .
    "The British colonial occupation of the Andaman Islands decimated the tribes living there, wiping out thousands of tribespeople, and only a fraction of the original population now survives. So the Sentinelese fear of outsiders is very understandable," Stephen Corry, the group's director, said in a statement.
    .
    Shiv Viswanathan, a social scientist and a professor at Jindal Global Law School, said North Sentinel Island was a protected area and not open to tourists. "The exact population of the tribe is not known, but it is declining. The government has to protect them," Viswanathan said.
    .
    Poachers are known to fish illegally in the waters around the island, catching turtles and diving for lobsters and sea cucuмbers. Tribespeople killed two Indian fishermen in 2006 when their boat broke loose and drifted onto the shore.
    .
    .
    This reminds me of a recording I have of a speech given by a famous American Indian Chief, when he addressed his fellow tribesmen and members of other indigenous tribes, telling them to join forces with the British against the Americans because the British did not oppress them or try to discourage their worship of the traditional Indian gods, nor were the British hungry for the land of their forefathers like the Americans were. This speaker was no doubt entirely ignorant of how the British were attacking the Sentinelese and other Andaman tribes, halfway around the globe! 
    .
    (That means on the other side of the world to flat-earthdom syndromers.)
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    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #12 on: November 23, 2018, 07:51:38 AM »
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  • Well, it's too bad that this is how he met his end.

    And a Catholic priest would suffer the same fate -- they're a viciously aggressive peoples with no outside contact. 
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Nick

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #13 on: November 23, 2018, 11:59:32 PM »
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  • An act of self defense.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Protestant killed by savage tribe on island outside India
    « Reply #14 on: November 24, 2018, 03:01:56 AM »
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  • .
    An act of self defense.
    .
    That's not a sentence.
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