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Offline Predestination

Predestination
« on: September 15, 2024, 01:11:02 AM »
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/predestination.pdf

Here is Fr Garrigou Lagrange on predestination. 

So many Catholics, even in tradition decry the idea of ”absolute predestination” as Calvinistic but predestination - and yes I mean double predestination is de fide and even held by the molinists. 


  • God, by His eternal resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness. 
  • God, by an eternal resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. (De fide)

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Offline josh987654321

Re: Predestination
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2024, 01:51:53 AM »
On one hand, God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, all powerful and knows all.

On the other hand, we do have free will... how to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory truths is where we hit stuff like Calvinism and Predestination... Predestination is not true, as long as you have a breath of life you are capable of salvation, nobody is born damned, it is simply that God is omniscient.

Our Lady of Fatima said that WWII could have been averted, was she a liar? This alone destroys such false theology IMO.

Then you look at St Peter, Jesus praying for him in Luke 22:32, why this if everything is set in stone?

"Watch ye, and pray that ye enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh weak." - Matthew 26:41

Why? If it's all predetermined from birth, what's the point? Is this a joke? He already knows and there's nothing St Peter can do to avert it according to these false ideologies? Why even get judged for sin if everything was predetermined from birth? If we don't have free will then it's not our fault.

As you can see, false understandings lead to erroneous conclusions. 

God Bless
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Offline Predestination

Re: Predestination
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2024, 04:19:02 AM »
We have free will. But not libertarian free will. I don’t know why you are bringing up Calvinism which is totally irrelevant as we are talking about catholic predestination - which is something you have to believe as a matter of faith. This isn’t up for debate, you may believe that predestination is conditional upon the scientist media but you may not deny that predestination is a thing. And Molinism is a very minority position within the church which is based on ideas which Sts Thomas and Augustine have written against.

The fact that you equated the catholic dogma of predestination with John Calvin just shows how far the modernists have influenced even those in tradition. I gave you father garrigou Lagrange to read who is the greatest thomist of the 20th Century, remember that thomism is the official theology of the church as per the encyclical aeterni Patris by Leo XIII

So please don’t quote holy writ against the very church to which it belongs.

And the answer to why Jesus was praying is that God also predestines all our works and prayers. And this does not destroy free will because he infallibly moves the will to determine itself to do something. See how this is not determinism which denies free will nor occasionalism which denies human agency.

Again please don’t quote holy writ against the very church to which it belongs.

God bless.
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Offline Predestination

Re: Predestination
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2024, 04:19:23 AM »
Quote from: josh987654321 on September 15, 2024, 01:51:53 AM
On one hand, God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, all powerful and knows all.

On the other hand, we do have free will... how to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory truths is where we hit stuff like Calvinism and Predestination... Predestination is not true, as long as you have a breath of life you are capable of salvation, nobody is born damned, it is simply that God is omniscient.

Our Lady of Fatima said that WWII could have been averted, was she a liar? This alone destroys such false theology IMO.

Then you look at St Peter, Jesus praying for him in Luke 22:32, why this if everything is set in stone?

"Watch ye, and pray that ye enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh weak." - Matthew 26:41

Why? If it's all predetermined from birth, what's the point? Is this a joke? He already knows and there's nothing St Peter can do to avert it according to these false ideologies? Why even get judged for sin if everything was predetermined from birth? If we don't have free will then it's not our fault.

As you can see, false understandings lead to erroneous conclusions.

God Bless
We have free will. But not libertarian free will. I don’t know why you are bringing up Calvinism which is totally irrelevant as we are talking about catholic predestination - which is something you have to believe as a matter of faith. This isn’t up for debate, you may believe that predestination is conditional upon the scientist media but you may not deny that predestination is a thing. And Molinism is a very minority position within the church which is based on ideas which Sts Thomas and Augustine have written against.

The fact that you equated the catholic dogma of predestination with John Calvin just shows how far the modernists have influenced even those in tradition. I gave you father garrigou Lagrange to read who is the greatest thomist of the 20th Century, remember that thomism is the official theology of the church as per the encyclical aeterni Patris by Leo XIII

So please don’t quote holy writ against the very church to which it belongs.

And the answer to why Jesus was praying is that God also predestines all our works and prayers. And this does not destroy free will because he infallibly moves the will to determine itself to do something. See how this is not determinism which denies free will nor occasionalism which denies human agency.

Again please don’t quote holy writ against the very church to which it belongs.

God bless.
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Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Re: Predestination
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2024, 05:08:17 AM »
What is the point of your queer crusade?

I could list dozens of grave, critical issues for Traditional Catholics today. And passing by all of those, you want to push the obscure Theological idea of "predestination" in a Catholic sense.

Why?

You even picked that for your screen name, so it sounds like your personal crusade.

Again -- why?
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