Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Pope Pius XII  (Read 3236 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline poche

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16730
  • Reputation: +1218/-4688
  • Gender: Male
Pope Pius XII
« on: June 02, 2015, 11:17:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •  Pius XII is currently in the spotlight mostly because of the bumpy road to his beatification, which is opposed by those who accuse him of having been too lenient towards Hitler’s Third Reich or even of having been in cahoots with the nαzι regime. Recent years have seen the publication of a vast amount of scholarly works refuting these accusations, including books by Sister Margherita Marchione, who is an American nun and member of the Religious Teachers Order Maestre Pie Filippini, and Rabbi David Dalin.

    The latest example of this is Il Terzo Reich Contro Pio XII: Papa Pacelli Nei Docuмenti nαzιsti (The Third Reich Against Pius XII: Pope Pacelli in nαzι Docuмents), by Italian historian Pier Luigi Guiducci, with a preface by Father Peter Gumpel, SJ, the postulator of Pius XII’s beatification cause. Editions in English, Spanish, and French are already in preparation.

    Professor Guiducci, who teaches Church history at three universities, including the Pontifical Lateran University’s Ecclesia Mater Institute and the Pontifical Salesian University, has authored nearly 100 books, most with a historical-religious focus, and was so kind as to accede our request for an interview.

     
      CWR Archive:  InterviewInterviewTweet71Pius XII: Hated or Revered by the Third Reich?
    June 20, 2013
    An interview with historian Pier Luigi Guiducci about his new book on the war-time pope.
    Alberto Carosa
    Pope Pius XII is pictured at the Vatican in a file photo dated March 15, 1949. (CNS file photo) The unprecedented abdication of Benedict XVI and the election of his successor, Pope Francis, has rekindled worldwide interest in the popes and the papacy. This interest has extended not only to Benedict and Francis, but also to other pontiffs, including the always-controversial Pius XII.

    Pius XII is currently in the spotlight mostly because of the bumpy road to his beatification, which is opposed by those who accuse him of having been too lenient towards Hitler’s Third Reich or even of having been in cahoots with the nαzι regime. Recent years have seen the publication of a vast amount of scholarly works refuting these accusations, including books by Sister Margherita Marchione, who is an American nun and member of the Religious Teachers Order Maestre Pie Filippini, and Rabbi David Dalin.

    The latest example of this is Il Terzo Reich Contro Pio XII: Papa Pacelli Nei Docuмenti nαzιsti (The Third Reich Against Pius XII: Pope Pacelli in nαzι Docuмents), by Italian historian Pier Luigi Guiducci, with a preface by Father Peter Gumpel, SJ, the postulator of Pius XII’s beatification cause. Editions in English, Spanish, and French are already in preparation.

    Professor Guiducci, who teaches Church history at three universities, including the Pontifical Lateran University’s Ecclesia Mater Institute and the Pontifical Salesian University, has authored nearly 100 books, most with a historical-religious focus, and was so kind as to accede our request for an interview.

    Professor Guiducci, could you describe the motives underlying your decision to address such a controversial topic as Pius XII and the nαzιs?

    Guiducci: Since the Sixties a certain literature has insisted on presenting the figure of Pope Pacelli in a negative connotation, hinting at an alleged passivity on his part during the years of World War II, bordering on some sort of sympathy for a Germany that in those years was dominated by the swastika. What appeared somewhat unclear from the viewpoint of a historical analysis was why so much fuss was being made over Pius XII while…many other, no less dramatic, and even more tragic situations were hardly exposed, scantily reported, and even thoroughly silenced. But by now, dreadful realities, which were neglected and/or sidelined, are increasingly cropping up, thanks to historical studies, investigative reporting, and new in-depth researches.  

    Can you give us some examples of these wilfully hidden or neglected tragic realities of that era?

    Guiducci: Yes; for example, the trade agreements between American companies and the government of the Third Reich. Perhaps few know that the calculators used at the Auschwitz cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ were IBM. Let alone the many shadows over Switzerland: the gold confiscated from the Jєωs was cast into ingots, these were transferred to Swiss banks and the nαzι government, with the cash received, could purchase what was needed to continue the war (different trials were held in this regard).

    Then the silence of the Allies who, while aware of the impending raid on the Jєωs in Rome (and elsewhere) did not inform the people involved for fear of [exposing] their intelligence network, or the inaction of resistance movements with regard to the roundup and deportation of Roman Jєωs, or the silence of the International Red Cross after some of its members visited the cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs.

     
     Another [reality] was the role of the Allies and other countries in supporting the escape of nαzι war criminals (also called ratline or Rattenlinien)…. Their employment was highly valued in missile research, in military and health studies, and in strictly economic sectors (the nαzιs did not need the support of the Vatican simply because they brought with them a lot of money and assets).

    Then we have eugenics experimentations conducted in non-nαzι countries, the war crimes of the Allies, including their violence on civilian populations, the non-solidarity of various countries toward the Jєωs when Hitler’s tragedy erupted in all its virulence, Stalin’s “death sentence” against Christians (in the millions), and I could go on and on.

    Thus, for the sake of historical truth and clarity, I came to the conclusion that it was of absolute [necessity] to get to know what the Third Reich’s top echelons were actually saying among themselves, and this could be done only by sifting their secret archives.

    This sounds to me like a mammoth and extremely ambitious project. How did you proceed?

    Guiducci: Yes, indeed, my project took seven years to complete and my book is but the first fruit of this effort. Initially, I needed to create a network of contacts in Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Spain, United Kingdom, United States, Russia, Israel. In fact, Jєωιѕн communities have also been involved in this network.

    Then there was the staff problem, since a number of highly professional translators from German to Italian was needed. Subsequently, the individual texts have been thrashed out with the comparative method (which requires longer times but it is the most reliable one). For example, a very secret nαzι dispatch would be compared with the translation made by the secret services and (whenever possible) with the testimonies of the protagonists themselves (as contained also in their diaries, reports, and memoirs).

    But most of all, as you aptly say, it was a mammoth job due to the fact the enormous amount of docuмents to be examined had not been properly filed and archived
    Are you kidding? That sounds a somewhat un-German attitude—not keeping files orderly…

    Guiducci:  Yes, you’re right, but let me give the full picture, since it’s a rather complex story. Everything is related to the fact that in 1945 the Soviets were the first get to Berlin. They took all they could from the archives there and everything was thrown in bulk into large containers which, by rail, were moved to Moscow, where they were stored in secret warehouses. For a long time historians struggled to convince the Soviets to open these archives, but to no avail. Denials were the usual responses.

    The deadlock, however, started to came to an end after the East German secret service asked their Russian colleagues for a dossier with the copied files of everything the nαzιs had said about Pius XII in their secret docuмents. Moscow complied with the request and the dossier was delivered to East Berlin. With the subsequent collapse of the Wall, the archives of East Berlin were incorporated into those of the Bundesrepublik (German Federal Republic) and thus, finally, scholars and researchers had the chance to access them and read what was there on Pius XII.

    And your book reflects the results of such research. Could you give us a round-up of its essential points?

    Guiducci: What we can briefly say it is that the work, first of all, shows that Pius XII was not passive. On the contrary, the spies refer of his vehement reactions against the nαzιs when they blocked his initiatives to relieve the plight of civil populations, as with the aid he had sent to Poland. Therefore it’s not true he was unable to react. Since he was Secretary of State, Pacelli did not hesitate to face up to and always stand his ground in the face of the arrogance and haughtiness of the Third Reich’s hierarchs.

    Likewise, he showed no uncertainties in the hours of grave decisions, since he did give instructions and directives to resist nαzι violence and never had a surrendering attitude, as evidenced also in the published docuмents concerning Msgr. Cesare Orsenigo, the nuncio in Berlin from 1930 to 1946. And most of all, his arms did not remain folded in the face of anti-Jєωιѕн raids in Rome on October 16, 1943. He intervened five times and on a particular occasion was even able to stop house-to-house searches, [making it possible] for part of the arrestees to be released, while on another occasion the Pope managed to stop the combing operation, [allowing] the Jєωs still at large to gain enough time and seek newer and safer hiding places, thus saving their lives.

    From the docuмents you were able to read, is it possible to infer the attitude of the nαzι top brass toward Pius XII and the Church in general?

    Guiducci: Yes, certainly. What I could surely say is that the nαzι dispatches reflect the profound hatred of the Third Reich leadership for Pius XII and the Church. Their hateful sentiments have to be seen in connection with the attitude of the Pope. He did not break any channel of communication with Germany, in order to preserve the good that was still possible to achieve, but at the same time he did [oppose] nαzι doctrine, Hitler’s methods, and, in general, the warring and killing decisions that normally went with them, with all the means and strengths to which he could morally resort. The nαzιs were all too aware of this, and hence their frustration. That’s why they decided to set up a tight spy network around the Pope, which, however, never proved thoroughly effective and ultimately failed to fully penetrate and thwart the decision-making system put in place by Pope Pacelli.

    http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/2347/pius_xii_hated_or_revered_by_the_third_reich.aspx

    Pope Pius XII was a Pope who resisted evil


    Offline Capt McQuigg

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4671
    • Reputation: +2624/-10
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 06:44:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Seventy million people died during World War II, some were Jєωs.  

    It's gross and vulgar avarice for Jєωs to try to profit by insisting that people other than those actually responsible, I.e., the nαzιs, pay any form of reparation to the Jєωs of today.  

    Let's not forget that the world truly watched in silence while seven million Ukrainians were deliberately starved to death and Catholic and Orthodox sources today aren't demanding some accounting of responsibility to the complicit silence of Jєωιѕн owned newspapers who may have known full well of the Jєωιѕн influences in Stalin's  Soviet Union.

    During the Ukrainian genocide of 1932-1933 the world was at peace whereas during the alleged silence of Pope Pius XII the world was in the fog of war.

    It's a sign that Jєωs can't be trusted as allies by noting that after WWII Jєωιѕн leaders were publicly praising Pope Pius XII and this entire LaShan HaRa of him being Hitler's Pope didn't come about until after a fictional play called The Deputy was written in 1963 or so.  

    The facts are the facts and the facts are that 70 million people died and hundreds of millions suffered tremendously.  In that ocean of pain, some Jєωs suffered also.  We should not allow this small group to act as if only their pain counts.  


    Offline tdrev123

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 592
    • Reputation: +360/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 10:48:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Seventy million people died during World War II, some were Jєωs.  

    It's gross and vulgar avarice for Jєωs to try to profit by insisting that people other than those actually responsible, I.e., the nαzιs, pay any form of reparation to the Jєωs of today.  

    Let's not forget that the world truly watched in silence while seven million Ukrainians were deliberately starved to death and Catholic and Orthodox sources today aren't demanding some accounting of responsibility to the complicit silence of Jєωιѕн owned newspapers who may have known full well of the Jєωιѕн influences in Stalin's  Soviet Union.

    During the Ukrainian genocide of 1932-1933 the world was at peace whereas during the alleged silence of Pope Pius XII the world was in the fog of war.

    It's a sign that Jєωs can't be trusted as allies by noting that after WWII Jєωιѕн leaders were publicly praising Pope Pius XII and this entire LaShan HaRa of him being Hitler's Pope didn't come about until after a fictional play called The Deputy was written in 1963 or so.  

    The facts are the facts and the facts are that 70 million people died and hundreds of millions suffered tremendously.  In that ocean of pain, some Jєωs suffered also.  We should not allow this small group to act as if only their pain counts.  



    The Jєωs didn't suffer, they orchestrated the world war.  Just as they killed Christ, the are all responsible for WW2 in one way or another.  The Jєωs controlled the US and Russia.  

    The real scandal is that Pope Pius XII didn't fully support the third Reich in foreign policy!  

    Offline JezusDeKoning

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2940
    • Reputation: +1090/-2220
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 12:44:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Because the Third Reich was an anti-Catholic, murderous regime.

    6 million died in the h0Ɩ0cαųst and that is not just Jєωs - that is ANYONE who was contrary to Hitler's plan. Catholics, Poles, the disabled, gypsies, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, etc.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline tdrev123

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 592
    • Reputation: +360/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 01:04:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    Because the Third Reich was an anti-Catholic, murderous regime.

    6 million died in the h0Ɩ0cαųst and that is not just Jєωs - that is ANYONE who was contrary to Hitler's plan. Catholics, Poles, the disabled, gypsies, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, etc.


    You actually believe in h0Ɩ0cαųst!? lol is this a joke?
    You actually believe Soviet propaganda?

    Give me any proof that the third Reich was "anti-catholic"

    Give me any scientific proof that the h0Ɩ0cαųst happened.

    The Third Reich's main goal was the defeat of bolshevism, as is the Catholic Church's.  If the Third Reich had won ww2, there would most likely never have been Vatican 2, no communist infiltration of the church.  

    The Third Reich's social and economic policy was fully in line with the Catholic Church.  

    You are committing calumny against the memories of the millions of Catholic National Socialists that died in defense of Europa, against the Satanic Bolshevism, please repent.  


    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 10:38:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    Because the Third Reich was an anti-Catholic, murderous regime.

    6 million died in the h0Ɩ0cαųst and that is not just Jєωs - that is ANYONE who was contrary to Hitler's plan. Catholics, Poles, the disabled, gypsies, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, etc.


    You actually believe in h0Ɩ0cαųst!? lol is this a joke?
    You actually believe Soviet propaganda?

    Give me any proof that the third Reich was "anti-catholic"

    Give me any scientific proof that the h0Ɩ0cαųst happened.

    The Third Reich's main goal was the defeat of bolshevism, as is the Catholic Church's.  If the Third Reich had won ww2, there would most likely never have been Vatican 2, no communist infiltration of the church.  

    The Third Reich's social and economic policy was fully in line with the Catholic Church.  

    You are committing calumny against the memories of the millions of Catholic National Socialists that died in defense of Europa, against the Satanic Bolshevism, please repent.  

    In answer to this I think we need to take a good look at Mit Brenender Sorge, an encyclical by Pope Pius XI;

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html
     

    Offline tdrev123

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 592
    • Reputation: +360/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #6 on: June 04, 2015, 12:40:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: poche
    Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    Because the Third Reich was an anti-Catholic, murderous regime.

    6 million died in the h0Ɩ0cαųst and that is not just Jєωs - that is ANYONE who was contrary to Hitler's plan. Catholics, Poles, the disabled, gypsies, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, etc.


    You actually believe in h0Ɩ0cαųst!? lol is this a joke?
    You actually believe Soviet propaganda?

    Give me any proof that the third Reich was "anti-catholic"

    Give me any scientific proof that the h0Ɩ0cαųst happened.

    The Third Reich's main goal was the defeat of bolshevism, as is the Catholic Church's.  If the Third Reich had won ww2, there would most likely never have been Vatican 2, no communist infiltration of the church.  

    The Third Reich's social and economic policy was fully in line with the Catholic Church.  

    You are committing calumny against the memories of the millions of Catholic National Socialists that died in defense of Europa, against the Satanic Bolshevism, please repent.  

    In answer to this I think we need to take a good look at Mit Brenender Sorge, an encyclical by Pope Pius XI;

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html
     




    I have read and studied Mit Brennender Sorge, as with all things since the start of the modern world, we need to understand, Context, the correct Meaning, and Why.

    Propaganda and sensationalizing were much easier before mass communication, just look at how propaganda is still a powerful force today, when we have mass communication and the internet etc. and now imagine propaganda before those things. The Political Correctness of the Western World at the time was very similar to how it is today, and the Vatican also was affected in the early 20th century.  
    As many people believe, including I, that many priests, bishops, and hierarchy of the church were heretics before vatican 2, it makes sense that many people within the Church opposed the Third Reich because of their own liberal views.  
    Many Bishops and Priests at the time were opposed to National Socialism, for what reasons would they be opposed?  They opposed National Socialism because they were liberals and some were heretics already, the basic tenets of national socialism made them scared and fearful.  Why?  Because National Socialism was a step backwards to them, it was the return of traditional society, of pride and unity.  

    I will try and be more detailed, the Bishops and Priests generally supported the center-right party.  National Socialism was completely against the status quo.  Since the 17th century, the Western world has drifted gradually to more liberalism, slowly but surely.  Just as today, every year more people hold liberal political views, less church attendance, etc...this didn't start in the 1960's, it has been going on for hundreds of years.  I will call this phenomenon, cultural marxism here out.  This Cultural Marxism is not a random shift of the world, it is a carefully orchestrated plan, by the devil and his worshipers on earth, the Jєωs and Liberals.  
    Almost the entire populace of the western world has gone along with cultural marxism...if you don't believe me, just look at life today, yes there are 'conservatives', but not really, conservative is a relative term, relative to the year, a conservative today was a liberal yesteryear.  The world in the 1930's was the same way, until a small political party lawfully became the government of Germany.  They stopped cultural marxism, this was not part of the plan...
    Now back to the Church at the time, the bishops and priests in the western world liked the status quo, even if the didn't realize that the status quo was cultural marxism.  Just think about Vatican 2, how many Bishops and priests went along with V-2, 99% of them!  
    Just as at Vatican 2, a minority of priests and Bishops did not follow Vatican 2, a minority of Clergy also believed in National Socialism, these were the more 'backward' countries of Slovakia and Croatia (Backward according to the liberals).

    So now back to Mit Brennender Sorge.  After the N.S.'s gained power and started implementing the tenets of National Socialism, the Jєωs and liberals did everything in their power to stop them, and propaganda is their greatest weapon.  Many of the Clergy and hierarchy believed the propaganda about the Third Reich and the political correctness of the time was very anti-N.S. - The Vatican bought into this belief that the third Reich was some Pagan, anti-Catholic country.  

    Now lets look at why the Vatican believed this.  There was a small element within the N.S. that were pagan or esoteric.  This element was never part of national Socialist teaching or laws!  Now some might object and say, well if the Third Reich was really Christian, it would have gotten rid of that element.  The National Socialism comprised of millions of people, there were factions and viewpoints, that are not in line with the actual teachings and laws made by the Third Reich.  Other factions were members of the former monarchy (many whom were Catholic) who were party members, some of them wanted a restoration of the monarchy.  Other factions were the corrupt, like Hermann Goering.  Within the Army there was a faction of high ranking, upper class members who wanted Germany to lose the war.  And on and on the factions went, if Hitler had gotten rid of all the factions, No Body would be left and somebody would have been successful in overtaking the Third Reich!

    Now the main issue the encyclical was alluding to was that Catholic students were being deprived of a religious education.  This is a half-truth at best.  Many members of the Clergy actively were anti-N.S. and they denounced there own government, essentially because they had to much pride in own's nation.  The goal of National Socialism wasn't to just have laws but to actually build a united society, and they did achieve it, but because the Clergy wouldn't be a part of it, they could not be trusted with the complete teaching of the children.  
    If the children in a country were being instructed by people who opposed the very thing that you are trying to create, what would you do?

    While the entire world was burning down through Bolshevism, the one government that was successfully defending Europa and the world, was being nitpicked by the Vatican.
    I am not afraid of people reading this encyclical, I encourage them, because if you read it, and actually think about the time of when this is being written, it is almost comical how ridiculous it is.

    As the House is on fire, the housewife is telling Jimmy don't put your elbows on the table.  
    The House, is the world and specifically Europe; the Housewife is the Vatican; and Jimmy is the Third Reich; and elbows on the table is a quasi-valid thing to tell your children, but it can also be considered nitpicking.

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #7 on: June 04, 2015, 04:20:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: poche
    Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    Because the Third Reich was an anti-Catholic, murderous regime.

    6 million died in the h0Ɩ0cαųst and that is not just Jєωs - that is ANYONE who was contrary to Hitler's plan. Catholics, Poles, the disabled, gypsies, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, etc.


    You actually believe in h0Ɩ0cαųst!? lol is this a joke?
    You actually believe Soviet propaganda?

    Give me any proof that the third Reich was "anti-catholic"

    Give me any scientific proof that the h0Ɩ0cαųst happened.

    The Third Reich's main goal was the defeat of bolshevism, as is the Catholic Church's.  If the Third Reich had won ww2, there would most likely never have been Vatican 2, no communist infiltration of the church.  

    The Third Reich's social and economic policy was fully in line with the Catholic Church.  

    You are committing calumny against the memories of the millions of Catholic National Socialists that died in defense of Europa, against the Satanic Bolshevism, please repent.  

    In answer to this I think we need to take a good look at Mit Brenender Sorge, an encyclical by Pope Pius XI;

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html
     




    I have read and studied Mit Brennender Sorge, as with all things since the start of the modern world, we need to understand, Context, the correct Meaning, and Why.

    Propaganda and sensationalizing were much easier before mass communication, just look at how propaganda is still a powerful force today, when we have mass communication and the internet etc. and now imagine propaganda before those things. The Political Correctness of the Western World at the time was very similar to how it is today, and the Vatican also was affected in the early 20th century.  
    As many people believe, including I, that many priests, bishops, and hierarchy of the church were heretics before vatican 2, it makes sense that many people within the Church opposed the Third Reich because of their own liberal views.  
    Many Bishops and Priests at the time were opposed to National Socialism, for what reasons would they be opposed?  They opposed National Socialism because they were liberals and some were heretics already, the basic tenets of national socialism made them scared and fearful.  Why?  Because National Socialism was a step backwards to them, it was the return of traditional society, of pride and unity.  

    I will try and be more detailed, the Bishops and Priests generally supported the center-right party.  National Socialism was completely against the status quo.  Since the 17th century, the Western world has drifted gradually to more liberalism, slowly but surely.  Just as today, every year more people hold liberal political views, less church attendance, etc...this didn't start in the 1960's, it has been going on for hundreds of years.  I will call this phenomenon, cultural marxism here out.  This Cultural Marxism is not a random shift of the world, it is a carefully orchestrated plan, by the devil and his worshipers on earth, the Jєωs and Liberals.  
    Almost the entire populace of the western world has gone along with cultural marxism...if you don't believe me, just look at life today, yes there are 'conservatives', but not really, conservative is a relative term, relative to the year, a conservative today was a liberal yesteryear.  The world in the 1930's was the same way, until a small political party lawfully became the government of Germany.  They stopped cultural marxism, this was not part of the plan...
    Now back to the Church at the time, the bishops and priests in the western world liked the status quo, even if the didn't realize that the status quo was cultural marxism.  Just think about Vatican 2, how many Bishops and priests went along with V-2, 99% of them!  
    Just as at Vatican 2, a minority of priests and Bishops did not follow Vatican 2, a minority of Clergy also believed in National Socialism, these were the more 'backward' countries of Slovakia and Croatia (Backward according to the liberals).

    So now back to Mit Brennender Sorge.  After the N.S.'s gained power and started implementing the tenets of National Socialism, the Jєωs and liberals did everything in their power to stop them, and propaganda is their greatest weapon.  Many of the Clergy and hierarchy believed the propaganda about the Third Reich and the political correctness of the time was very anti-N.S. - The Vatican bought into this belief that the third Reich was some Pagan, anti-Catholic country.  

    Now lets look at why the Vatican believed this.  There was a small element within the N.S. that were pagan or esoteric.  This element was never part of national Socialist teaching or laws!  Now some might object and say, well if the Third Reich was really Christian, it would have gotten rid of that element.  The National Socialism comprised of millions of people, there were factions and viewpoints, that are not in line with the actual teachings and laws made by the Third Reich.  Other factions were members of the former monarchy (many whom were Catholic) who were party members, some of them wanted a restoration of the monarchy.  Other factions were the corrupt, like Hermann Goering.  Within the Army there was a faction of high ranking, upper class members who wanted Germany to lose the war.  And on and on the factions went, if Hitler had gotten rid of all the factions, No Body would be left and somebody would have been successful in overtaking the Third Reich!

    Now the main issue the encyclical was alluding to was that Catholic students were being deprived of a religious education.  This is a half-truth at best.  Many members of the Clergy actively were anti-N.S. and they denounced there own government, essentially because they had to much pride in own's nation.  The goal of National Socialism wasn't to just have laws but to actually build a united society, and they did achieve it, but because the Clergy wouldn't be a part of it, they could not be trusted with the complete teaching of the children.  
    If the children in a country were being instructed by people who opposed the very thing that you are trying to create, what would you do?

    While the entire world was burning down through Bolshevism, the one government that was successfully defending Europa and the world, was being nitpicked by the Vatican.
    I am not afraid of people reading this encyclical, I encourage them, because if you read it, and actually think about the time of when this is being written, it is almost comical how ridiculous it is.

    As the House is on fire, the housewife is telling Jimmy don't put your elbows on the table.  
    The House, is the world and specifically Europe; the Housewife is the Vatican; and Jimmy is the Third Reich; and elbows on the table is a quasi-valid thing to tell your children, but it can also be considered nitpicking.

    Pope Pius XI said that he was opposed to National Socialism of the Hitler regime because they didn't keep the promises that they made in the Concordat that they signed with the Holy See. They also promoted an erroneous view of the world which he was bound to point out to the German people.  


    Offline tdrev123

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 592
    • Reputation: +360/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #8 on: June 04, 2015, 09:46:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: poche
    Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: poche
    Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    Because the Third Reich was an anti-Catholic, murderous regime.

    6 million died in the h0Ɩ0cαųst and that is not just Jєωs - that is ANYONE who was contrary to Hitler's plan. Catholics, Poles, the disabled, gypsies, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, etc.


    You actually believe in h0Ɩ0cαųst!? lol is this a joke?
    You actually believe Soviet propaganda?

    Give me any proof that the third Reich was "anti-catholic"

    Give me any scientific proof that the h0Ɩ0cαųst happened.

    The Third Reich's main goal was the defeat of bolshevism, as is the Catholic Church's.  If the Third Reich had won ww2, there would most likely never have been Vatican 2, no communist infiltration of the church.  

    The Third Reich's social and economic policy was fully in line with the Catholic Church.  

    You are committing calumny against the memories of the millions of Catholic National Socialists that died in defense of Europa, against the Satanic Bolshevism, please repent.  

    In answer to this I think we need to take a good look at Mit Brenender Sorge, an encyclical by Pope Pius XI;

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html
     




    I have read and studied Mit Brennender Sorge, as with all things since the start of the modern world, we need to understand, Context, the correct Meaning, and Why.

    Propaganda and sensationalizing were much easier before mass communication, just look at how propaganda is still a powerful force today, when we have mass communication and the internet etc. and now imagine propaganda before those things. The Political Correctness of the Western World at the time was very similar to how it is today, and the Vatican also was affected in the early 20th century.  
    As many people believe, including I, that many priests, bishops, and hierarchy of the church were heretics before vatican 2, it makes sense that many people within the Church opposed the Third Reich because of their own liberal views.  
    Many Bishops and Priests at the time were opposed to National Socialism, for what reasons would they be opposed?  They opposed National Socialism because they were liberals and some were heretics already, the basic tenets of national socialism made them scared and fearful.  Why?  Because National Socialism was a step backwards to them, it was the return of traditional society, of pride and unity.  

    I will try and be more detailed, the Bishops and Priests generally supported the center-right party.  National Socialism was completely against the status quo.  Since the 17th century, the Western world has drifted gradually to more liberalism, slowly but surely.  Just as today, every year more people hold liberal political views, less church attendance, etc...this didn't start in the 1960's, it has been going on for hundreds of years.  I will call this phenomenon, cultural marxism here out.  This Cultural Marxism is not a random shift of the world, it is a carefully orchestrated plan, by the devil and his worshipers on earth, the Jєωs and Liberals.  
    Almost the entire populace of the western world has gone along with cultural marxism...if you don't believe me, just look at life today, yes there are 'conservatives', but not really, conservative is a relative term, relative to the year, a conservative today was a liberal yesteryear.  The world in the 1930's was the same way, until a small political party lawfully became the government of Germany.  They stopped cultural marxism, this was not part of the plan...
    Now back to the Church at the time, the bishops and priests in the western world liked the status quo, even if the didn't realize that the status quo was cultural marxism.  Just think about Vatican 2, how many Bishops and priests went along with V-2, 99% of them!  
    Just as at Vatican 2, a minority of priests and Bishops did not follow Vatican 2, a minority of Clergy also believed in National Socialism, these were the more 'backward' countries of Slovakia and Croatia (Backward according to the liberals).

    So now back to Mit Brennender Sorge.  After the N.S.'s gained power and started implementing the tenets of National Socialism, the Jєωs and liberals did everything in their power to stop them, and propaganda is their greatest weapon.  Many of the Clergy and hierarchy believed the propaganda about the Third Reich and the political correctness of the time was very anti-N.S. - The Vatican bought into this belief that the third Reich was some Pagan, anti-Catholic country.  

    Now lets look at why the Vatican believed this.  There was a small element within the N.S. that were pagan or esoteric.  This element was never part of national Socialist teaching or laws!  Now some might object and say, well if the Third Reich was really Christian, it would have gotten rid of that element.  The National Socialism comprised of millions of people, there were factions and viewpoints, that are not in line with the actual teachings and laws made by the Third Reich.  Other factions were members of the former monarchy (many whom were Catholic) who were party members, some of them wanted a restoration of the monarchy.  Other factions were the corrupt, like Hermann Goering.  Within the Army there was a faction of high ranking, upper class members who wanted Germany to lose the war.  And on and on the factions went, if Hitler had gotten rid of all the factions, No Body would be left and somebody would have been successful in overtaking the Third Reich!

    Now the main issue the encyclical was alluding to was that Catholic students were being deprived of a religious education.  This is a half-truth at best.  Many members of the Clergy actively were anti-N.S. and they denounced there own government, essentially because they had to much pride in own's nation.  The goal of National Socialism wasn't to just have laws but to actually build a united society, and they did achieve it, but because the Clergy wouldn't be a part of it, they could not be trusted with the complete teaching of the children.  
    If the children in a country were being instructed by people who opposed the very thing that you are trying to create, what would you do?

    While the entire world was burning down through Bolshevism, the one government that was successfully defending Europa and the world, was being nitpicked by the Vatican.
    I am not afraid of people reading this encyclical, I encourage them, because if you read it, and actually think about the time of when this is being written, it is almost comical how ridiculous it is.

    As the House is on fire, the housewife is telling Jimmy don't put your elbows on the table.  
    The House, is the world and specifically Europe; the Housewife is the Vatican; and Jimmy is the Third Reich; and elbows on the table is a quasi-valid thing to tell your children, but it can also be considered nitpicking.

    Pope Pius XI said that he was opposed to National Socialism of the Hitler regime because they didn't keep the promises that they made in the Concordat that they signed with the Holy See. They also promoted an erroneous view of the world which he was bound to point out to the German people.  


    The Clergy were the first to break the Concordat! The Third Reich only broke their promise regarding education because the Clergy were trying to undermine the Government, thereby breaking the concordat.

    No official National Socialist tenet promoted an erroneous view, as I have already mentioned.  Some people in the party held erroneous views, that doesn't mean you are supposed to condemn the entire government!

    I just want to give you an example, General Ludendorff who was the second most famous General from WW1 and who was involved with the Beer Hall Putsch, he repeatedly said that he did not want a state funeral when he died because he did not like that the third reich was a Christian country.  Ludendorff was a member of the Thule Society so he was opposed to philosophy of national Socialism, aka Christianity.

    Offline tdrev123

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 592
    • Reputation: +360/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #9 on: June 04, 2015, 11:46:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hey Poche remember all those times that you have opposed the expulsion of Jєωs in pervious threads.

    "No one would think of preventing young Germans establishing a true ethnical community..." Mit Brennender Sorge

    That is obviously referring to creating a country of one ethnicity, thereby getting rid of the Jєωs.  

    Offline JPaul

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3832
    • Reputation: +3722/-293
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #10 on: June 04, 2015, 02:01:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Unless a body rids itself of a debilitating parasite, it will weaken and die. There is but one way to regain the former vigor of what were essentially Christian nations, and that is to remove,(expel if you will), the deforming parasite from the midst of its peoples.

    The recovery of Germany from poverty, destruction, and satanic decadence, after the Jєω was removed from all places of influence, was not only remarkable, it was proof positive of what can happen when they have been extirpated.
    And this was long before the Jєωιѕн war against Germany was fomented. It also explains why they manipulated the allies into a crusade to destroy the German people. Revenge has been in their blood from the beginning.



    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #11 on: June 04, 2015, 11:07:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: tdrev123
    Hey Poche remember all those times that you have opposed the expulsion of Jєωs in pervious threads.

    "No one would think of preventing young Germans establishing a true ethnical community..." Mit Brennender Sorge

    That is obviously referring to creating a country of one ethnicity, thereby getting rid of the Jєωs.  


    8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html

    Offline BTNYC

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2777
    • Reputation: +3122/-97
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #12 on: June 04, 2015, 11:11:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    Because the Third Reich was an anti-Catholic, murderous regime.

    6 million died in the h0Ɩ0cαųst and that is not just Jєωs - that is ANYONE who was contrary to Hitler's plan. Catholics, Poles, the disabled, gypsies, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, etc.


    Shocking. You've struck me as a more or less reasonable person up to now....

    So, you not only accept, a priori, the absolutely absurd "six million" magical number, but you also decry as unjust the execution of sodomites (or, as you put it, "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs"), who perpetrate that wicked and abominable Crime against nature that cries to Heaven for Vengeance?

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #13 on: June 04, 2015, 11:13:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Unless a body rids itself of a debilitating parasite, it will weaken and die. There is but one way to regain the former vigor of what were essentially Christian nations, and that is to remove,(expel if you will), the deforming parasite from the midst of its peoples.

    The recovery of Germany from poverty, destruction, and satanic decadence, after the Jєω was removed from all places of influence, was not only remarkable, it was proof positive of what can happen when they have been extirpated.
    And this was long before the Jєωιѕн war against Germany was fomented. It also explains why they manipulated the allies into a crusade to destroy the German people. Revenge has been in their blood from the beginning.



    10. This God, this Sovereign Master, has issued commandments whose value is independent of time and space, country and race. As God's sun shines on every human face so His law knows neither privilege nor exception. Rulers and subjects, crowned and uncrowned, rich and poor are equally subject to His word. From the fullness of the Creators' right there naturally arises the fullness of His right to be obeyed by individuals and communities, whoever they are. This obedience permeates all branches of activity in which moral values claim harmony with the law of God, and pervades all integration of the ever-changing laws of man into the immutable laws of God.

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Pius XII
    « Reply #14 on: June 04, 2015, 11:14:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: poche
    Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: poche
    Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    Because the Third Reich was an anti-Catholic, murderous regime.

    6 million died in the h0Ɩ0cαųst and that is not just Jєωs - that is ANYONE who was contrary to Hitler's plan. Catholics, Poles, the disabled, gypsies, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, etc.


    You actually believe in h0Ɩ0cαųst!? lol is this a joke?
    You actually believe Soviet propaganda?

    Give me any proof that the third Reich was "anti-catholic"

    Give me any scientific proof that the h0Ɩ0cαųst happened.

    The Third Reich's main goal was the defeat of bolshevism, as is the Catholic Church's.  If the Third Reich had won ww2, there would most likely never have been Vatican 2, no communist infiltration of the church.  

    The Third Reich's social and economic policy was fully in line with the Catholic Church.  

    You are committing calumny against the memories of the millions of Catholic National Socialists that died in defense of Europa, against the Satanic Bolshevism, please repent.  

    In answer to this I think we need to take a good look at Mit Brenender Sorge, an encyclical by Pope Pius XI;

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html
     




    I have read and studied Mit Brennender Sorge, as with all things since the start of the modern world, we need to understand, Context, the correct Meaning, and Why.

    Propaganda and sensationalizing were much easier before mass communication, just look at how propaganda is still a powerful force today, when we have mass communication and the internet etc. and now imagine propaganda before those things. The Political Correctness of the Western World at the time was very similar to how it is today, and the Vatican also was affected in the early 20th century.  
    As many people believe, including I, that many priests, bishops, and hierarchy of the church were heretics before vatican 2, it makes sense that many people within the Church opposed the Third Reich because of their own liberal views.  
    Many Bishops and Priests at the time were opposed to National Socialism, for what reasons would they be opposed?  They opposed National Socialism because they were liberals and some were heretics already, the basic tenets of national socialism made them scared and fearful.  Why?  Because National Socialism was a step backwards to them, it was the return of traditional society, of pride and unity.  

    I will try and be more detailed, the Bishops and Priests generally supported the center-right party.  National Socialism was completely against the status quo.  Since the 17th century, the Western world has drifted gradually to more liberalism, slowly but surely.  Just as today, every year more people hold liberal political views, less church attendance, etc...this didn't start in the 1960's, it has been going on for hundreds of years.  I will call this phenomenon, cultural marxism here out.  This Cultural Marxism is not a random shift of the world, it is a carefully orchestrated plan, by the devil and his worshipers on earth, the Jєωs and Liberals.  
    Almost the entire populace of the western world has gone along with cultural marxism...if you don't believe me, just look at life today, yes there are 'conservatives', but not really, conservative is a relative term, relative to the year, a conservative today was a liberal yesteryear.  The world in the 1930's was the same way, until a small political party lawfully became the government of Germany.  They stopped cultural marxism, this was not part of the plan...
    Now back to the Church at the time, the bishops and priests in the western world liked the status quo, even if the didn't realize that the status quo was cultural marxism.  Just think about Vatican 2, how many Bishops and priests went along with V-2, 99% of them!  
    Just as at Vatican 2, a minority of priests and Bishops did not follow Vatican 2, a minority of Clergy also believed in National Socialism, these were the more 'backward' countries of Slovakia and Croatia (Backward according to the liberals).

    So now back to Mit Brennender Sorge.  After the N.S.'s gained power and started implementing the tenets of National Socialism, the Jєωs and liberals did everything in their power to stop them, and propaganda is their greatest weapon.  Many of the Clergy and hierarchy believed the propaganda about the Third Reich and the political correctness of the time was very anti-N.S. - The Vatican bought into this belief that the third Reich was some Pagan, anti-Catholic country.  

    Now lets look at why the Vatican believed this.  There was a small element within the N.S. that were pagan or esoteric.  This element was never part of national Socialist teaching or laws!  Now some might object and say, well if the Third Reich was really Christian, it would have gotten rid of that element.  The National Socialism comprised of millions of people, there were factions and viewpoints, that are not in line with the actual teachings and laws made by the Third Reich.  Other factions were members of the former monarchy (many whom were Catholic) who were party members, some of them wanted a restoration of the monarchy.  Other factions were the corrupt, like Hermann Goering.  Within the Army there was a faction of high ranking, upper class members who wanted Germany to lose the war.  And on and on the factions went, if Hitler had gotten rid of all the factions, No Body would be left and somebody would have been successful in overtaking the Third Reich!

    Now the main issue the encyclical was alluding to was that Catholic students were being deprived of a religious education.  This is a half-truth at best.  Many members of the Clergy actively were anti-N.S. and they denounced there own government, essentially because they had to much pride in own's nation.  The goal of National Socialism wasn't to just have laws but to actually build a united society, and they did achieve it, but because the Clergy wouldn't be a part of it, they could not be trusted with the complete teaching of the children.  
    If the children in a country were being instructed by people who opposed the very thing that you are trying to create, what would you do?

    While the entire world was burning down through Bolshevism, the one government that was successfully defending Europa and the world, was being nitpicked by the Vatican.
    I am not afraid of people reading this encyclical, I encourage them, because if you read it, and actually think about the time of when this is being written, it is almost comical how ridiculous it is.

    As the House is on fire, the housewife is telling Jimmy don't put your elbows on the table.  
    The House, is the world and specifically Europe; the Housewife is the Vatican; and Jimmy is the Third Reich; and elbows on the table is a quasi-valid thing to tell your children, but it can also be considered nitpicking.

    Pope Pius XI said that he was opposed to National Socialism of the Hitler regime because they didn't keep the promises that they made in the Concordat that they signed with the Holy See. They also promoted an erroneous view of the world which he was bound to point out to the German people.  


    The Clergy were the first to break the Concordat! The Third Reich only broke their promise regarding education because the Clergy were trying to undermine the Government, thereby breaking the concordat.

    No official National Socialist tenet promoted an erroneous view, as I have already mentioned.  Some people in the party held erroneous views, that doesn't mean you are supposed to condemn the entire government!

    I just want to give you an example, General Ludendorff who was the second most famous General from WW1 and who was involved with the Beer Hall Putsch, he repeatedly said that he did not want a state funeral when he died because he did not like that the third reich was a Christian country.  Ludendorff was a member of the Thule Society so he was opposed to philosophy of national Socialism, aka Christianity.


    What you are saying contradicts Pope Pius XI.