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Author Topic: Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith  (Read 20130 times)

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Offline mw2016

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Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2016, 01:13:52 PM »
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  • Ok, OHCA is a heliocentrist. I get it now.

     :wink:

    Offline mw2016

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #46 on: September 05, 2016, 01:15:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: cassini
    The Irony of it is that the Church HAS dogmatically defined heliocentrism (a fixed sun and moving earth) as formal heresy.

    THE DOCTRINE OF GEOCENTRISM: St Clement of Alexandria demonstrated that the altar in the Jєωιѕн Tabernacle was “a symbol of the earth placed in the middle of the universe:” nothing more was needed; the geocentric theory was fully adopted by the Church and universally held to agree with the letter and spirit of Scripture. Wrought into this foundation, and based upon it, there was developed in the middle ages, mainly out of fragments of Chaldean and other early theories preserved in the Hebrew Scriptures, a new sacred system of astronomy, which became one of the great treasures of the universal Church – the last word of revelation. Three great men mainly reared this structure. First was the unknown who gave to the world the treatises ascribed to Dionysius the Areopagite. It was unhesitatingly believed that these were the work of St Paul’s Athenian convert, and therefore virtually of St Paul himself. Though now known to be spurious [sic], they were then considered a treasure of inspiration, and an emperor of the East sent them to an emperor of the West as the most worthy of gifts. In the ninth century they were widely circulated in Western Europe, and became a fruitful source of thought especially on the whole celestial hierarchy. Thus the old ideas of astronomy were vastly developed, and the heavenly hosts were classed and named in accordance with indications scattered through the sacred Scriptures.
     


    Yay!
     :rahrah:


    Offline OHCA

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #47 on: September 05, 2016, 02:09:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: mw2016
    Ok, OHCA is a heliocentrist. I get it now.

     :wink:


    I appreciate the lofty title, but I think you're giving me too much credit both in knowledge about the subject and caring about the subject.  Next time I recognize that it's raining, perhaps you could label me a rainist.  We trads have enough views on important matters that put us in the tinfoil-hat club.  I typically enjoy out-tinfoil-hatting the best of them.  But I am discerning enough to know that though some views are correct despite being tinfoil-hattish, tinfoil-hattishness does not necessitate the correctness of a view.  I may come around (pun slightly intended) as I have on other matters.  But for now I am not convinced.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #48 on: September 05, 2016, 03:36:51 PM »
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  • As your penance OHCA you are hereby ordered to listen to this entire talk by John Salza.  As your homework you are hereby assigned to report back to us ASAP on everything in Mr. Salza's talk that you disagree with.  You may give your precise reasons for your disagreement if you wish.

      [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/ghZktd-PCOo[/youtube]

    Offline OHCA

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #49 on: September 05, 2016, 05:38:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: klasG4e
    As your penance OHCA you are hereby ordered to listen to this entire talk by John Salza.  As your homework you are hereby assigned to report back to us ASAP on everything in Mr. Salza's talk that you disagree with.  You may give your precise reasons for your disagreement if you wish.

      [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/ghZktd-PCOo[/youtube]


    I don't make a habit of listening to freemasons or laymen "preaching."  I have read Salza's accounts of KoC and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ--I believe most of what he says in that regard.  But I am very skeptical that he didn't already know himself before giving masonry a trial run.  He strikes me as simply an attention grabber and I won't suffer listening or reading anymore of his self promotions.  I would as soon read Gajewski or any other mad layman.


    Offline klasG4e

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #50 on: September 05, 2016, 06:58:35 PM »
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  • OHCA
    Quote
    I won't suffer listening or reading anymore of his [John Salza's] self promotions.

    Well, can't you at least humor me then by listening to the talk.  I guarantee you he is not promoting himself in the talk, but rather the traditional teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.  I hereby grant you an exemption from my previously assigned homework and you can listen to the talk for fun, not for penance if you want to see it that way.  Pleeeeez!  

    If it helps just remember the old saying of "principles before personalities."  Even if you remain convinced he's trying to promote himself keep in mind that he is still giving a well versed talk on the traditional teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

    Offline happenby

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #51 on: September 05, 2016, 08:05:29 PM »
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  • Geocetrism is necessary to the Faith because it is the opposite of the lies science is feeding us about God's creation.  If we cannot drum up the ooomph to defend creation as it is, we have no business trying to be heard about God.  

    Offline happenby

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #52 on: September 05, 2016, 08:06:30 PM »
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  • Either Geocentrism is truth or it is a lie.  There is no in between.  And with everything riding on the veracity of the Holy Ghost, everyone best have the right answer.


    Offline happenby

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #53 on: September 05, 2016, 08:08:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    Quote from: klasG4e
    OHCA said:
    Quote
    So what's your point?

    You do know that if you insinuate an argument implicitly based on flawed logic that it's just as flawed as if you came out and said what you're getting at instead of beating around the bush, don't you?


    Sorry for any confusion; none intended.

    Soooooo....OK.  What don't you get?

    Do you believe that a traditional reading of Genesis allows for the Big Bang with Light being created before Earth?  If yes, how so?  If no, you agree with me.

    If you can provide a link to any geocentrists who are on record as supporting the Big Bang please provide me with same.  (I'd certainly like to see their reasoning.)  Perhaps, you have run across some.  As of yet, I have not.  



    Here is what I don't get:

    Quote from: OHCA
    Quote from: klasG4e
    On the other hand, the vast majority of heliocentrists, including Christian ones appear to believe in the Big Bang.


    So what's your point?

    You do know that if you insinuate an argument implicitly based on flawed logic that it's just as flawed as if you came out and said what you're getting at instead of beating around the bush, don't you?


    It appears that you are trying to discredit heliocentrists because some of them are also Big Bangers.  These are two questions that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.  For what it's worth, I am not a Big Banger nor an evolutionist.



    All heliocentrists are Big Bangers or they don't know the philosophy behind heliocentrism and think they can marry good and evil.

    Offline happenby

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #54 on: September 05, 2016, 08:10:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: mw2016
    Quote from: Neil Obstat

    Another one -- a growing number of people today, including some Catholics, are starting to believe in extraterrestrials (UFOs, intelligent life from other planets, solar systems, galaxies), and even time travel.  




    Really? Name one. I can't.

    I've never met a Trad Catholic (and I know a LOT) who believe in aliens. Every Trad I've ever met knows the reality of so-called "aliens" being demons. Honestly, I have never met a Trad who thought there was "life on other planets."


    Not to worry, mw2016, he's talking about heliocentrists.  Many do believe in aliens but that's because they are infected with globalism.

    Offline happenby

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #55 on: September 05, 2016, 08:17:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Arvinger
    Some time ago the Dimonds put together an interesting article on the status on Geocentrism, arguing that the Church has not settled the matter.

    They brought up an intereting quote from Pope Benedict XV's encyclical In Praeclara Summorum:

    "If the progress of science showed later that that conception of the world rested on no sure foundation, that the spheres imagined by our ancestors did not exist, that nature, the number and course of the planets and stars, are not indeed as they were then thought to be, still the fundamental principle remained that the universe, whatever be the order that sustains it in its parts, is the work of the creating and preserving sign of Omnipotent God, who moves and governs all, and whose glory risplende in una parte piu e meno altrove; and though this earth on which we live may not be the centre of the universe as at one time was thought, it was the scene of the original happiness of our first ancestors, witness of their unhappy fall, as too of the Redemption of mankind through the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ."

    Pope Benedict XV explicitly states that something else than geocentrism might be true. Also, the heliocentric work were removed from the Index of Forbidden Books during the pontificate of Pope Benedict XIV, and Pope Pius VII approved printing books on movement of earth in Rome.

    While I'm not opposed to geocentrism (I simply don't know, I have not studied the topic and evidence properly), it seems that the Church has not settled the matter yet. Jut as Stubborn said, I highly doubt whether people are judged by God on whether they believed in geocentrism or heliocentrism, provided they remained of good will.


    The Church has settled the matter.  In 1633 when She said: Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy," namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the center of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse, and detest" those opinions.[51]


    And infallibly the Church declared:

    We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine—which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures—that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world;

    Heliocentrism is condemned.


    Offline happenby

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #56 on: September 05, 2016, 08:19:19 PM »
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  • The Pope and the Church have stated that geocentrism is essential to the Faith so those of you that ticked the "I don't think so" box ought to re look at your answers.

    Offline happenby

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #57 on: September 05, 2016, 08:25:59 PM »
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  • Due to the spread of the Copernican theory and complaints of theologians, the Holy Office in
    1633 condemned the following propositions and explained why they are false:


    I. The sun is the center of the world and completely immovable by local motion.
    II. The earth is not the center of the world, not immovable, but moves according to the
    whole of itself, and also with a diurnal motion.

    Offline mw2016

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #58 on: September 05, 2016, 08:30:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: happenby
    Quote from: mw2016
    Quote from: Neil Obstat

    Another one -- a growing number of people today, including some Catholics, are starting to believe in extraterrestrials (UFOs, intelligent life from other planets, solar systems, galaxies), and even time travel.  




    Really? Name one. I can't.

    I've never met a Trad Catholic (and I know a LOT) who believe in aliens. Every Trad I've ever met knows the reality of so-called "aliens" being demons. Honestly, I have never met a Trad who thought there was "life on other planets."


    Not to worry, mw2016, he's talking about heliocentrists.  Many do believe in aliens but that's because they are infected with globalism.


    Agreed.

    Offline happenby

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    Poll: Is Geocentrism Necessary to the Faith
    « Reply #59 on: September 05, 2016, 08:50:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: mw2016
    Quote from: happenby
    Quote from: mw2016
    Quote from: Neil Obstat

    Another one -- a growing number of people today, including some Catholics, are starting to believe in extraterrestrials (UFOs, intelligent life from other planets, solar systems, galaxies), and even time travel.  




    Really? Name one. I can't.

    I've never met a Trad Catholic (and I know a LOT) who believe in aliens. Every Trad I've ever met knows the reality of so-called "aliens" being demons. Honestly, I have never met a Trad who thought there was "life on other planets."


    Not to worry, mw2016, he's talking about heliocentrists.  Many do believe in aliens but that's because they are infected with globalism.


    Agreed.


    Hang in there girl, truth is everything!