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Author Topic: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"  (Read 1363 times)

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Offline Texana

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Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
« on: June 13, 2024, 11:34:13 AM »
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    • In the "Always Faithful" newsletter for the SSPX Poland, No.232, Tomasz Grzybowski, Professor of Medical Sciences, Head of Forensic Medicine, explains how his research is "a kind of 'demystification' of contemporary 'Eucharistic events' ".
    Translation from Polish may be required:

    https://www.piusx.org.pl/zawsze_wierni/artykul/3238
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #1 on: June 13, 2024, 11:42:26 AM »
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    • I am all in favor of subjecting purported Eucharistic "miracles" to the most rigorous scientific testing, and to add credibility, done by scientists who are absolutely hostile to the idea that these may, indeed, be miracles.

    Then, if repeated scientific analysis of this matter, performed upon different species in different locations, separated by time and space, turns up the very same DNA, with characteristics that indicate it is from the heart muscle tissue of a man, who died in a traumatic fashion, with haplotypes that indicate Middle Eastern Semitic origin, and possibly even no human father, well, then, that gives everyone something to consider.
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #2 on: June 13, 2024, 12:06:56 PM »
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    • Title Update:

    "God Has A Sense of Humor...Tomasz Grzybowski (Translated: Thomas of Mushrooms) Concludes It's Mushrooms!  Not Human Tissue"

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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #3 on: June 13, 2024, 12:15:04 PM »
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    • Yep.  I pointed out the eery similarity between the two incidents in Poland, where in each case the host was dropped, and then placed in the vessel with water to dissolve.  It picked up some type of fungus that's common in Poland and the fungus grew.  This was hypothesized even by the scientists who first examined the cases and who were not in agreement with the one woman who rashly concluded that they were miraculous.

    Despite this, even IF the sample had been found to contain human tissue, that is STILL NO PROOF of miracle, since the devil can easily simluate such miracles by swapping out some of the bread substance with some human flesh (which the devil can easil obtain).

    That is why the Church examines everything, from the context, to the fruits, to the theology of the various participants in said miracle.

    I'm still astonished that Bishop Williamson has taken these phenomena as proof of the validity of the NOM.  It's no such thing.
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #4 on: June 13, 2024, 12:31:27 PM »
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    • Dear Texana,

    Please remember "The Profession of Faith of the Council of Trent" from the Bull of Pius IV, "Iniunctum nobis" Nov. 13, 1565.

    "I also profess that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper sacrifice of propitiation for the living and the dead, and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially present the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that there takes place a conversion of the whole substance of bread into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood; and this conversion the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation.  I also acknowledge that under one species alone the whole and entire Christ and the true sacrament are taken.  (Dz. 997) The Sources of Catholic Dogma, Henry Denzinger, Herder, 1957.

    This is an Article of Faith you must believe and profess: "the whole and entire Christ" is taken in Holy Communion, NOT ONLY "heart tissue" of a man in distress!
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #5 on: June 13, 2024, 12:59:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on June 13, 2024, 11:42:26 AM
    I am all in favor of subjecting purported Eucharistic "miracles" to the most rigorous scientific testing, and to add credibility, done by scientists who are absolutely hostile to the idea that these may, indeed, be miracles.

    Then, if repeated scientific analysis of this matter, performed upon different species in different locations, separated by time and space, turns up the very same DNA, with characteristics that indicate it is from the heart muscle tissue of a man, who died in a traumatic fashion, with haplotypes that indicate Middle Eastern Semitic origin, and possibly even no human father, well, then, that gives everyone something to consider.
    I too am in favour BUT is this a case of the end justifies the means?  How does the church justify letting these scientists touch the Blessed Sacrament?  Seems like a catch 22.
    Was this ever done pre VAT II?
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    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #6 on: June 13, 2024, 12:59:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on June 13, 2024, 12:31:27 PM
    Dear Texana,

    Please remember "The Profession of Faith of the Council of Trent" from the Bull of Pius IV, "Iniunctum nobis" Nov. 13, 1565.

    "I also profess that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper sacrifice of propitiation for the living and the dead, and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially present the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that there takes place a conversion of the whole substance of bread into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood; and this conversion the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation.  I also acknowledge that under one species alone the whole and entire Christ and the true sacrament are taken.  (Dz. 997) The Sources of Catholic Dogma, Henry Denzinger, Herder, 1957.

    This is an Article of Faith you must believe and profess: "the whole and entire Christ" is taken in Holy Communion, NOT ONLY "heart tissue" of a man in distress!

    OK, in the case of legitimate Eucharistic miracles, it's not merely Our Lord's heart tissue that's present substantially, but the miracle simply entails changing some of the accidents from those of bread to the accidents of human heart tissue.  There's no theological contradiction between the detection of heart tissue (accidents) and the dogma that Our Lord is present entirely in the Blessed Sacrament (substantially).
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #7 on: June 13, 2024, 01:28:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miseremini on June 13, 2024, 12:59:00 PM
    I too am in favour BUT is this a case of the end justifies the means?  How does the church justify letting these scientists touch the Blessed Sacrament?  Seems like a catch 22.
    Was this ever done pre VAT II?

    I've wondered all of these things as well.  First of all, before Vatican II, the kind of technology to which I referred didn't exist.

    The question then becomes "would Our Lord want His Body to be tested in this way, to prove that the miracle is indeed true?".  

    If such technology had existed in the year AD 33, would He have been okay with a DNA test, perhaps a blood sample, to prove to the doubtful that His risen Body was that of the same Person as walked the face of the earth before the Crucifixion?

    I can't answer that.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #8 on: June 13, 2024, 01:33:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 13, 2024, 12:15:04 PM
    Despite this, even IF the sample had been found to contain human tissue, that is STILL NO PROOF of miracle, since the devil can easily simluate such miracles by swapping out some of the bread substance with some human flesh (which the devil can easil obtain).

    Perhaps, but could He obtain human flesh that would have the DNA characteristics indicating the type of unique origin to which I alluded?  And could he obtain the very same human flesh in different purported Eucharistic miracles in different times and places?

    That's attributing an awful lot of near-omnipotence to the evil one.  

    If the test results came back the same way every time, and if they had DNA characteristics unique to what we believe about Our Lord (a fortiori if they indicated no human father), then it would seem to be an instance of Occam's Razor, viz. the simplest explanation is probably the correct one.

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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #9 on: June 13, 2024, 02:13:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on June 13, 2024, 11:34:13 AM
    In the "Always Faithful" newsletter for the SSPX Poland, No.232, Tomasz Grzybowski, Professor of Medical Sciences, Head of Forensic Medicine, explains how his research is "a kind of 'demystification' of contemporary 'Eucharistic events' ".
    Translation from Polish may be required:

    https://www.piusx.org.pl/zawsze_wierni/artykul/3238
    `````````````
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #10 on: June 13, 2024, 02:22:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on June 13, 2024, 11:34:13 AM
    In the "Always Faithful" newsletter for the SSPX Poland, No.232, Tomasz Grzybowski, Professor of Medical Sciences, Head of Forensic Medicine, explains how his research is "a kind of 'demystification' of contemporary 'Eucharistic events' ".
    Translation from Polish may be required:

    https://www.piusx.org.pl/zawsze_wierni/artykul/3238
    Dear Cath Info,

    It is mushrooms!  It is not human tissue!

      Please read the OP article in which Grzybowski explains what he has proven in recent, scientific medical forensic analysis.

    (sorry for the cat's above reply before this one)
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Polish Scientist's New Assessment of "Eucharistic Miracles"
    « Reply #11 on: June 13, 2024, 03:36:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on June 13, 2024, 01:33:37 PM
    Perhaps, but could He obtain human flesh that would have the DNA characteristics indicating the type of unique origin to which I alluded?  And could he obtain the very same human flesh in different purported Eucharistic miracles in different times and places?

    That's attributing an awful lot of near-omnipotence to the evil one. 

    Absolutely he could, and it doesn't require anything near "omnipotence".  Piece of cake for the devil.  There's no "perhaps" about it.  Heck, even human beings, who lack angelic intelligence, can genetically engineer things.
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