Author Topic: Retreat - refuge options (Read 8389 times)

Diego · « **Reply #30 on:** April 09, 2012, 10:06:46 AM »

Quote from: Maizar

Quote from: Diego
Quote from: Maizar
At the very minimum, half an acre of good, arable land is actually sufficient for nearly complete self sufficiency, given enough rainfall capture and ideally an aquifer....

In 21st century standards, one-half acre per person would likely find you calorie deficient.

Not really. See how to live off 1 Acre of Land, and other similar articles. The full process requires a greenhouse, chickens, worm farm, fruit trees, and a supply of compost (this is where half an acre will fall over). Really one would need more than half an acre, as with that small amount of land (eg: in a suburban setting) there needs to be supplementation by bringing in manure and garden waste, but this is not a great expense, and over time the requirements for this decrease gradually.

I dispute the website's claim that "Even just a quarter-acre of land will produce more than enough food to feed the average family of four."

Are they serious? that a family of four can survive on 1/4 acre alone, 1/16th acre per person without any other supplement???

Sure you can do intensive interplanting and have supplements like rabbits (Whoops! There goes the whole garden), chickens, and bees, but I would argue that your "one half acre" is simply slows the outcome of malnutrition, allowing no margin for the inevitable crop failures and soil depletion.

A short-term supplement certainly, but in no way a long term plan for success.

jlamos · « **Reply #31 on:** April 09, 2012, 03:48:31 PM »

Quote from: Diego

I dispute the website's claim that "Even just a quarter-acre of land will produce more than enough food to feed the average family of four."

There is a family in Pasadena that grows 6,000 pounds of produce on one-tenth of an acre. They have been doing so for years.

http://urbanhomestead.org/

Diego · « **Reply #32 on:** April 10, 2012, 01:45:41 AM »

I am skeptical. Their website makes claims, but I see no substantiation or cross check. I could make a nice website, post some verdant photos, and make some Excel charts. Some or all of you are free to believe them and stake your family's future on 1/10 or 1/16 of an acre.

Maizar · « **Reply #33 on:** April 10, 2012, 01:48:21 AM »

Quote from: Diego

I dispute the website's claim that "Even just a quarter-acre of land will produce more than enough food to feed the average family of four."

Are they serious? that a family of four can survive on 1/4 acre alone, 1/16th acre per person without any other supplement???

Sure you can do intensive interplanting and have supplements like rabbits (Whoops! There goes the whole garden), chickens, and bees, but I would argue that your "one half acre" is simply slows the outcome of malnutrition, allowing no margin for the inevitable crop failures and soil depletion.

A short-term supplement certainly, but in no way a long term plan for success.

Yes, by traditional methods you are quite right, the soil will get depleted and crops will fail, but newer techniques which pay closer attention to the life cycle of plants, co-planting and natural methods of pest control, and which aim to retain captured carbon, nitrogen and minerals through recycling biological waste (even, for example, using a composting toilet) means that little goes to waste and the addition of mulch and manure from outside sources (which I said was necessary) will mean that the total biomass of the 1/2 acre or whatever it is, actually increases with use.

Diego · « **Reply #34 on:** April 10, 2012, 02:05:04 AM »

I too have used all those methods (except a composting toilet) with excellent success in our own verdant garden providing a fine supplement of nutritious organic foods for our family—and that is precisely why I am skeptical of their claims of self-sufficiency and their claimed level of production. Our own efforts require considerable outside supplementation that I am certain would not be equalled by inclusion of a composting toilet.

I reiterate, I am entirely in favor of using the methods mentioned—and I will certainly include a composting toilet in our next home—but I am skeptical of the claim of 6,000# of self sufficient and nutritionally balanced production and I would never risk my family to such a tiny plan.

If anyone else wants to commit their family's food security to 1/10 or 1/16th of an acre, far be it from me to get in the way. I am not trying to be argumentative, but as a very capable third generation gardener, I think it imprudent to depend solely on such little space for survival. Of course, if one has nothing else and has no other option, do make the best of it.

Maizar · « **Reply #35 on:** April 10, 2012, 02:39:41 AM »

Quote from: Diego

I too have used all those methods (except a composting toilet) with excellent success in our own verdant garden providing a fine supplement of nutritious organic foods for our family—and that is precisely why I am skeptical of their claims of self-sufficiency and their claimed level of production. Our own efforts require considerable outside supplementation that I am certain would not be equalled by inclusion of a composting toilet.

I reiterate, I am entirely in favor of using the methods mentioned—and I will certainly include a composting toilet in our next home—but I am skeptical of the claim of 6,000# of self sufficient and nutritionally balanced production and I would never risk my family to such a tiny plan.

If anyone else wants to commit their family's food security to 1/10 or 1/16th of an acre, far be it from me to get in the way. I am not trying to be argumentative, but as a very capable third generation gardener, I think it imprudent to depend solely on such little space for survival. Of course, if one has nothing else and has no other option, do make the best of it.

Oh I agree with that Diego, I wouldn't myself do it on such a small block! It is very touch-and-go on small acreage, with little room for error, and the garden will over-produce at times and under-produce at others, but apparently it is achievable. But if you are thinking about staple food then potato growing is the most space and energy efficient vegetable for providing basic energy needs, eg: can be grown in tyre stacks, and this has been done with success in urban gardens by pretty inexperienced amateurs.

I think full self sufficiency is a fantasy except with ample land and is usually a result of isolation and not choice, but should bad times come, someone stuck on half an acre with a fully functioning permaculture garden and a bit of storage of non-perishables could do pretty well for a year or more. It's all a question of exactly what problem one hopes to solve.

Diego · « **Reply #36 on:** April 10, 2012, 11:33:05 AM »

Quote from: Maizar

I think full self sufficiency is a fantasy except with ample land and is usually a result of isolation and not choice, but should bad times come, someone stuck on half an acre with a fully functioning permaculture garden and a bit of storage of non-perishables could do pretty well for a year or more. It's all a question of exactly what problem one hopes to solve.

I agree in all respects. I would add that "full self-sufficiency" is unobtainable and, as a Catholic, undesirable. We depend upon the Holy Trinity, the Holy Family, the Holy Angels, Saints, our bishops and priests. We also depend upon our neighbors for skills we do not have and do not live long enough to acquire. That is why I seek a community with fertile soil, abundant water, a suitable growing season, and neighbors who need my skills and who would help me with skills I do not have.

ggreg · « **Reply #37 on:** April 12, 2012, 05:56:41 PM »

All sounds like a lot of hard work. I have trouble growing hanging baskets of flowers and strawberries.

I think I will get me a still and 10 tonnes of sugar.

Either that or lay down with me Rosary and ready myself for death. Easier.

Diego · « **Reply #38 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:30:23 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

All sounds like a lot of hard work. I have trouble growing hanging baskets of flowers and strawberries.

I think I will get me a still and 10 tonnes of sugar.

Either that or lay down with me Rosary and ready myself for death. Easier.

Funny that you say that. There is a fellow who touts his stills on the "prepper" blogs and forums.

That said, here are some better ideas than laying down and dying:

http://www.rebuildingchristendom.com/

JohnChrysostom · « **Reply #39 on:** April 20, 2012, 09:08:22 PM »

Quote from: Graehame

Quote from: Deo Vindice

Although I'm not opus dei I understand that they have significant influence there, and it seems to me that at least they can throw a punch when it comes to standing up for the faith. But then again, I really have no idea of what I'm talking about when it comes to opus dei.

Maizar's opinion, delivered above, reflects the fact that Opus Dei has come under considerable criticism. Personally, based on my own investigation, I think much of that criticism is unfounded, but it isn't a very big issue with me.

Opus Dei=More Novus Ordo
Run By Communists and Jєωs.

Quote

So maybe it's (Chile) a good place to hunker down. I may be way off though

Its a great place to bunker down...

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You raised the point of what it means to be a Catholic these days. It's my understanding that in much of Latin American liberation theology has taken root, which is a radical, ultra-liberal-- I'd say even non-Catholic-- arm of the Catholic Church. From your posts I'm sure you understand what I mean.

They still have Conservative Catholic sensibilities, and that is what makes it nice to live around Catholics, however they practice and whatever mass they attend.

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It isn't that we have to hate them, Deo-- it's that they hate us. Islam is literally full of people-- kids, most of 'em-- who look forward eagerly to the chance to blow themselves up to kill a few of us. How many Christians do you know who'd commit ѕυιcιdє to kill a few Muslims?

Do you really believe this crap you write?
America had NO Enemies in the Middle East, Before Israel. Ever thought of that?
And yes, theyd fight us with their teeth if they have to.
Bombs work just as well, but most times (95%) Mossad/CIA operatives pay unsuspecting kids $20 to deliver a package to market.
Package gets to destination, and the phone delivers the 'charge'. Blame Sunni, then repeat with Shiite. Instant cινιℓ ωαr where there was none.
BY WAY OF DECEPTION, THOU SHALL DO WAR. Surely you know this...I hope.

JohnChrysostom · « **Reply #40 on:** April 20, 2012, 09:12:29 PM »

Quote from: Diego

I am skeptical. Their website makes claims, but I see no substantiation or cross check. I could make a nice website, post some verdant photos, and make some Excel charts. Some or all of you are free to believe them and stake your family's future on 1/10 or 1/16 of an acre.

Theres Video on Youtube of this very familys garden home on 1/4 an acre if you dont believe it.

Its inspiring, and was on the News as well.
6000 pounds of produce, they have a few goats and rabbits too.
It just goes to Show you what hard work can do.

And some aesome gardening skills.
Their entire yard is edible. And I mean edible, and they sell surplus at organic restaurants to pay the bills.
let me know if you wish to see it, I will link it, But I also want you to eat some crow first.

Diego · « **Reply #41 on:** April 21, 2012, 01:13:18 AM »

Why? What did I do to you that I should "eat crow"? I am a gardener and am skeptical of the claim of 6,000# closed system production. Big deal. Did that somehow step on your toes? It's not like I spit in your face or on a crucifix.

JohnChrysostom · « **Reply #42 on:** April 21, 2012, 02:01:36 PM »

Quote from: Diego

Why? What did I do to you that I should "eat crow"? I am a gardener and am skeptical of the claim of 6,000# closed system production. Big deal. Did that somehow step on your toes? It's not like I spit in your face or on a crucifix.

What kind of real gardener doubts (multiple times, the claims AND link to a website) of a family that produces 6000 lbs of produce on their 1/6-1/4 of an acre farm?

Do you want the Youtube Link or not of their family farm, showing you the awesomness/productivity of it?

Or are you content to be a malcontent, and a doubting Thomas of the reality and accomplishment of this family farm?

Diego · « **Reply #43 on:** April 21, 2012, 10:05:00 PM »

On due consideration I remain skeptical. No matter how verdant the video, such production on so little land requires massive initial and periodic imported biomass. Only an ignorant loudmouth Brooklyn rebitsin would claim otherwise.