Author Topic: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative (Read 5541 times)

poche · « **Reply #20 on:** November 07, 2019, 10:50:05 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on November 07, 2019, 03:35:46 PM

THIS^^^. He was undoubtedly one of the worst legitimate popes in history. He was the watershed that led directly to Vatican II.

1) opened the door to evolution
2) opened the door to NFP as Catholic birth control
3) started the first ecuмenical meetings
4) enabled Bugnini to begin his liturgical experimentations
5) did not defend Father Feeney against Cardinal Cushing's heresy, and so failed to defend EENS dogma, which led to Vatican II. He had the opportunity to stand up for and reaffirm EENS in a way that would have precluded Vatican II
6) appointed, during his long reign, the vast majority of bishops who would later bring us Vatican II

Actually Pope Pius X presided over an ecuмenical meeting when he had that interview with Herzl.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2019, 05:39:29 AM »

Quote from: Matto on November 07, 2019, 08:08:07 PM

I have only heard the claim made. I have not read the first-hand docuмents. So perhaps it is not true. But I did not hear the claim first from Mrs. Martinez who uses it to indict him. I first heard it from Pope Pius XII's defenders. Upon accusations of him being "Hitler's Pope" supposedly the Vatican's archives from the World War II period were opened up and his defenders claimed that the Pope did everything possible to save Jews including the forging of docuмents and the hiding of them in monasteries and convents, etc. And this was used to defend the Pope. In those articles it was not suggested that lying and forgery were sins, it was just assumed that anything done to help a Jew was good. So I am not sure to what extent Pope Pius XII was aware of everything done in his name.

It does not take much inquiry to see that he was the head of the whole effort. THAT is what the Pope Pius XII's defenders concluded and have been publishing since the Vatican archives were made public. To conclude the contrary, one would have to say that the Vatican totally lied.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #22 on:** November 08, 2019, 05:44:39 AM »

Quote from: poche on November 07, 2019, 10:35:53 PM

In that same interview he also said, "I have always been on good terms with Jews." This is a direct contradiction to everything that the nαzι movement was was all about.

Pope St. Pius X saying he is on good terms with the Jews does not equate with Pius XII's falsifying baptisms. The nαzι's have nothing to do with my comments. The Jews did not/do not consider that Puis X was on good terms with them, didn't you read my Jerusalem Post link? https://www.jpost.com/Christian-News/Today-in-History-Pope-Pius-refused-to-support-a-Jєωιѕн-Jerusalem-442696

Pope St. Pius X considered that he was on good terms because he was speaking the truth to them. He was honest. That is why he is a saint.

forlorn · « **Reply #23 on:** November 08, 2019, 10:30:26 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on November 07, 2019, 03:29:29 PM

Roncalli was an interesting character. He didn't care for Bugnini and shut him down, kicked him out of the Vatican ... after Pius XII had enabled him to experiment with the Mass. I think that Roncalli liked the Traditional Mass for its aesthetics.

It does make me wonder - was John XXIII even that bad a pope? I always assumed so because of the circuмstances of his election and his convocation of Vatican 2, but come to think of it I don't know of any particular things he did that were bad for the Church. He did call for Vatican 2, but it was barely open when he died and it seems to me that most of the innovations and talk of ecuмenism came after Paul VI took charge. Perhaps Vatican 2 would've taken a different course under John for all I know, but that's the thing - I don't. So I'm wondering if someone here could give a breakdown of the good and bad things he did in his pontificate.

roscoe · « **Reply #24 on:** November 08, 2019, 11:17:38 AM »

It seems Roncalli was FMason. In case you haven't heard, the sect is condemned by Pope Leo XIII in the Encyclical Humanum Genus. :cheers:

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative (Read 5541 times)

poche

Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative

Last Tradhican

Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative

Last Tradhican

Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative

forlorn

Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative

roscoe

Re: Pius XII and WW2 - Pius the liberal and Roncalli the conservative