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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

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Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 85224 times)

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Offline jdfaber

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #275 on: March 19, 2024, 08:44:53 AM »
Quote from: Texana on March 18, 2024, 10:10:49 PM
"By this word we mean certain religious actions or circuмstances, which the Church observes in the administration of the sacraments, or the oblation of the sacrifice, and which are apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice..."
The sacraments consist of matter and form to which is added the intention of the minister. The rite of the sacrament binds these together. In the case of the Holy Mass this role is fulfilled by the Canon. The Canon is the rite that contains the essence, or substance of the sacrifice which is Transubstantiation, it is not apart from the substance of the sacrifice, it also provides the rubrics for it.

In other words:

The substance of the Canon is the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The substance of the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the form of Transubstantiation and the matter of bread and wine. The substance of the form are the words of the institution. The substance of the matter is leaven or unleavened bread and sacramental wine.
The Canon without the Sacrament of the Eucharist does not exist, its only purpose is the sacrifice.
Suarez writes, "And thus it is certain, that the Canon, according to that form which now is said in the Mass, is neither of the substance of the sacrifice, nor instituted by Christ the Lord: for such institution is nowhere recorded" (here).
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Offline Texana

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #276 on: March 19, 2024, 09:23:58 AM »
Quote from: jdfaber on March 19, 2024, 08:44:53 AM
Suarez writes, "And thus it is certain, that the Canon, according to that form which now is said in the Mass, is neither of the substance of the sacrifice, nor instituted by Christ the Lord: for such institution is nowhere recorded" (here).
Dear jdfaber,

As most of the time Fr. Suarez is right. The Canon is not the substance of the sacrifice, it contains the substance of the sacrifice. As far as institution of the Canon, just because there is no written record of it does not necessarily mean that particular anaphoras were not presented to the Apostles, by Christ Himself. In the west we suffer from analytical minutia hunting, in the east the clergy realizes their inability to comprehend everything God instituted, and they are wise enough to leave some things untouched.
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Offline jdfaber

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #277 on: March 19, 2024, 11:39:08 AM »
Quote from: Texana on March 19, 2024, 09:23:58 AM
The Canon is not the substance of the sacrifice, it contains the substance of the sacrifice.
In other words, "the religious actions or circuмstances … which are apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice"
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Offline Texana

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #278 on: March 19, 2024, 09:49:51 PM »
Quote from: jdfaber on March 19, 2024, 11:39:08 AM
In other words, "the religious actions or circuмstances … which are apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice"
Dear jdfaber,

Part of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice is the Offertory. The Canon contains the substance of the sacrifice, it is part of it and cannot be separated from it.

For instance: these are the words introducing the Transubstantiation:
Tenens ambabus manibus Hostiam inter indices et pollices, profert verba consecrationis secrete, distincte, et attente super Hostiam, et simul super omnes, si plures sint consecrandae. Without this rubric a priest may say the following words of Hoc est enim Corpus meum, just as he would read them from a Bible or as you just read them. We are so used to priests knowing what to do, that we forget that someone had to teach them, these instructions are contained in the rubrics.

I have an idea why our minds do not meet on this.
1)The sacrifice is a wider term from Transubstantiation, the Offertory is required for the sacrifice, but not for Transubstantiation. Without the Offertory, what happens is not a sacrifice. So a priest saying the words of Transubstantiation outside of the Mass, without the use of rubrics, does not offer a sacrifice.
2)Absence of the rubrics will cause a priest to merely say the words without connecting them with the matter and displaying the proper intention. The sacrifice will not take place, because there will be no Sacrament.

    In conclusion: the religious actions and circuмstances provided in the Canon are not apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice.
In other words: the Canon is not the substance of the sacrifice, but is not apart from it.
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Offline jdfaber

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #279 on: March 19, 2024, 09:56:52 PM »
Quote from: Texana on March 17, 2024, 09:00:39 PM
Conclusion: If Canon XIII of the Seventh Session of Trent is a dogmatic statement and not just a disciplinary rule with a serious penalty, then it should fulfill the requirements of infallibility. If it does fulfill the aforementioned requirements, one of which is binding the Universal Church, it also binds a pope. By codification of the rites of the Sacraments, the Council of Trent intended to preserve them and protect them from changes.
If something is taught dogmatically, it was true before it was taught. It didn't begin to be true when it was taught. If your reading of the canon is correct, then would it not have always been true that no one could change the rites without offense? And yet we know that saints did this very thing. Was St Gregory the Great acting contrary to the faith when he added to the canon?
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