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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 51396 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #165 on: February 01, 2024, 01:59:09 PM »
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  • Quote
    No, incidental changes made only by popes certainly occur, what those types of changes don't do, is they do not change the rite.
    Obviously.  So the question becomes:  does the addition of St Joseph change the rite?  Probably not.  (but I don't believe this change was done legally, so the question is moot).

    Did Pius XII's changes to Holy Week change the rite?  No.  Were they good/holy changes?  Some details were good, but overall, probably not the best.

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #166 on: February 01, 2024, 02:59:24 PM »
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  • In legal docuмents, words like "perpetual" mean the law has no defined end date. It continues to be law unless it is abrogated. It does not mean the law can never be abrogated. For example, consider how no one would argue that "perpetual peace treaties" mean any future wars are illegal. https://blog.oup.com/2017/10/perpetual-peace/


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #167 on: February 02, 2024, 05:06:30 AM »
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  • In legal docuмents, words like "perpetual" mean the law has no defined end date. It continues to be law unless it is abrogated. It does not mean the law can never be abrogated. For example, consider how no one would argue that "perpetual peace treaties" mean any future wars are illegal. https://blog.oup.com/2017/10/perpetual-peace/
    Yes, there are legal docuмents where certain words and terms can have certain legalistic meanings other than what the word normally means, and then there are official Church docuмents that are meant to mean what they say, to be understood as they are written outside of a court of law or lawyer's office, where 'in perpetuity' and 'forever' are to be understood literally, to mean what they say by design so that there is no mistaking the message. 

    Personally, I do not believe that Quo Primum could ever be legally abrogated because of what it pertains to, the eternal sacrifice. I believe PPV had that authority to bind even popes, and knew why he bound us forever, and knew well that he had the authority to do it. Many other trad priests believe(d) the same, Fr. Altenbach is on record preaching it....https://tinyurl.com/mrxc4k5n  Heck, even the Dimonds believed it, not sure but they probably don't believe it any more, but that's only because there's a whole lot more to sedeism than just a vacant chair.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #168 on: February 02, 2024, 07:10:48 AM »
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  • Obviously.  So the question becomes:  does the addition of St Joseph change the rite?  Probably not.  (but I don't believe this change was done legally, so the question is moot).

    As I mentioned, since the Communicantes already concludes the section with "and of all the saints," there is actually zero change in the meaning, since St. Joseph is already included in "all the saints" and calling out his name explicitly changes absolutely nothing.  So there's no "probably" not about it.  It most certainly does not change the meaning of the sentence in any way whatsoever.

    That's like saying, in Latin, "ego te absolvo ..." is different from "te absolvo ..."  Both are identical, with the first merely adding a bit of emphasis.

    In addition, the part of the Canon where the departed faithful are commemorated is already "changeable", as the priest is permitted to insert names of his own choosing.  So I see very little difference here.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #169 on: February 03, 2024, 11:47:32 AM »
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  • The Canon is the anaphora, or eucharistic prayer, for the Roman Rite and its various usages as well the name for the anaphora in other Western Rites (Gallican, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Bragan, and Glogolitic Rites). The Canon begins remotely with the Preface Dialogue and Preface,  proximately with the Sanctus, and properly with the Te Igitur. Most of the Canon is a fixed narrative said almost entirely sotto voce (the pre-62 Mass has 3 levels of voice, whilst the 62 Mass has only 2 levels). The Roman Canon is the most common form of the anaphora for the Roman Rite. There are (or have been) variations in the text for local usages. And there are proper Communicantes and Hanc igitur for certain holy days. The number of Prefaces have varied in time, being generally fixed with the Missal of Pius V, although additional Prefaces squeezed their way into the back of 19th- and early 20th-century printings, but never into the typical editions. The Canon concludes with the Per ipsum, which was once sung aloud (a practice revived with the 65 Missal), but has been properly offered quietly with the rest of the Canon for several recent centuries. The Canon itself probably once had a different ordering of the prayers,  but whatever that may have been is lost in the very earliest centuries of the Roman Church. What we have in ordering of prayers and saints mentioned obtains at least to the 4th century with final "tweaks" ending by the 7th century.
    Dear ElwinRansom1970,
    Thank you very much for your explanation.  Please explain the relationship between "liturgy" and "discipline".  Could you refer us to a relevant docuмent or book?  Thank you for your help!


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #170 on: February 03, 2024, 04:33:40 PM »
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  • Dear ElwinRansom1970,
    Thank you very much for your explanation.  Please explain the relationship between "liturgy" and "discipline".  Could you refer us to a relevant docuмent or book?  Thank you for your help!
    Here is a place to begin:

    Fortescue, Adrian. The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy. (London, New York: Longmans, Green & Co., 2912)

    Some trads love Fortescue because he is not Josef Jungmann and Michael Davies promoted Fortescue. However, Fortescue was an academic which means that what he actually has written can seem modernistic to trad ears. He really isn't if one reads carefully.

    But never be a person of one book! Look at Jungmann. Look at Gueranger! Look at Schneeman!

    Or even learn like a scholar:  Go to Le Dictionnaire de Théologie Catholique and the New Catholic Encyclopedia and compile bibliographies from the sources used to create entries in these reference books. Go read those books and note the sources you find there for an ever-growing bibliography. Keep going until you start cycling back to already examined sources.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #171 on: February 03, 2024, 06:23:07 PM »
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  • I have seen the readings of the Mass, liturgy, and I don't like them.  The thou, thee, thy went to you, you, you and your.  It decreases God to you.  I am not happy with it. St. Joseph is just a way a putting a toe in the door for more changes.   I would have been happy to see at least the addition Holy ghost the Paraclete to the Divine Graces, and adding Blessed be His Most Precious Blood. They added St. Joseph there, but not the Holy Ghost?

    Offline Jonah

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #172 on: February 04, 2024, 04:03:16 AM »
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  • I have seen the readings of the Mass, liturgy, and I don't like them.  The thou, thee, thy went to you, you, you and your.  It decreases God to you.  I am not happy with it. St. Joseph is just a way a putting a toe in the door for more changes.  I would have been happy to see at least the addition Holy ghost the Paraclete to the Divine Graces, and adding Blessed be His Most Precious Blood. They added St. Joseph there, but not the Holy Ghost?
    Oh, they did! Once a NO enthusiast tried to convince me that the Eucharistic Prayers II-IV were improvements on the Roman Canon precisely because they mentioned the Holy Ghost.


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #173 on: February 04, 2024, 05:08:58 AM »
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  • Oh, they did! Once a NO enthusiast tried to convince me that the Eucharistic Prayers II-IV were improvements on the Roman Canon precisely because they mentioned the Holy Ghost.
    The imposition of epicleses in the new anaphoræ created after Vatican II was part of a conscious Byzantinisation of the Roman liturgy. Many Catholic liturgists of the time were influenced by the liturgical theology Orthodox Fr. Alexander Schmemann, and believed the Roman canon to be deficient because it lacked an epiclesis. This element was introduced into the newly-composed anaphoræ. When one recognises what a bizarre jumble of Byzantine and Lutheran elements make-up the Novus Ordo and how it has an significantly Jansenist inspiration, it is imposdible ever again to view the liturgy introduced by Montini with anything other than contempt.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #174 on: February 04, 2024, 05:28:48 AM »
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  • . . . the Novus Ordo and how it has an significantly Jansenist inspiration . . . 

    On what basis do you call the NO "Jansenist"?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #175 on: February 04, 2024, 06:10:39 AM »
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  • On what basis do you call the NO "Jansenist"?
    The inspiration, methods, and form of the liturigcal rites of Paul VI align with the liturgical programme of the 18th-century Jansenists. Hopefully I can give more detail later, but, for now, look at the liturgical reforms enacted during the 1700s in Austria, in Tuscany, in Perugia, and what was desired by Bishop Hénri Grégoire, the primate of the French Constitutional Church. Above all, look at the Synod of Pistoia and what it planned. Pistoia was formally condemned by the Church.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #176 on: February 04, 2024, 07:00:05 AM »
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  • The inspiration, methods, and form of the liturigcal rites of Paul VI align with the liturgical programme of the 18th-century Jansenists. Hopefully I can give more detail later, but, for now, look at the liturgical reforms enacted during the 1700s in Austria, in Tuscany, in Perugia, and what was desired by Bishop Hénri Grégoire, the primate of the French Constitutional Church. Above all, look at the Synod of Pistoia and what it planned. Pistoia was formally condemned by the Church.

    Thanks for your response. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #177 on: February 04, 2024, 11:41:26 AM »
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  • Thanks for your response.
    Most welcome.

    A correction though to what I wrote -- Perugia should be Modena. It is actually a big difference!
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #178 on: February 06, 2024, 09:50:09 PM »
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  • In reply nr.2 Stubborn provided the quote from "Quo Primum" - nothing must be added, nothing omitted, nor anything whatsoever be changed.

    In reply nr.27 OABrownson1876 offered when the Canon begins, but not where it ends.

    In reply nr.29 Angelus offered the Chapter IV from the XXII Session of the Council of Trent and its Canon VI which is the conclusion that the Canon of the Mass does not contain error and cannot be abrogated.
    Also, "Canon" means "measuring line" or "the rule".

    In reply nr.32 DecemRationis offered Bull "Exultate Deo" of Pope Eugene IV confirming the teaching of the Council of Florence. The form of the Sacrament of the Eucharist are the words of the Saviour with which He effected this Sacrament, and the quote from Matthew 24.

    In reply nr.34 DecemRationis offered "Now, I say those Divine Elements refer to those pertaining to the Sacrament of the Eucharist of which the Mass is the vehicle". The Mass is the vehicle for the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

    In reply nr.44 Angelus offered the quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia : "The Council of Trent (1545-63) restrained this tendency and ordered that ' the holy Canon composed many centuries ago' should be kept pure and unchanged."

    In reply nr.54 DecemRationis offered the Bull "Apostolicae Curae". The Church is forbidden to change or even touch the matter or form of any Sacrament. She may indeed change or abolish or introduce something in non essential rites or "ceremonial" parts to be used in the administration of the Sacraments, such as processions, prayers or hymns, before or after the actual words of the form and recited nr.45 of the Bull.

    In reply nr.57 Stubborn used the word "codified", but did not define it.

    In reply nr.65 DecemRationis offered "The substance of a Sacrament consists of those elements which are absolutely necessary in order to have the Sacrament; viz, the matter and form. ... The form is the sequence of specific, determinate words pronounced by the minister of the Sacrament."

    In reply nr.68 DecemRationis brings up "Quod a Nobis", the Bull concerning the Breviary.

    Next follow several posts about binding authority of the Popes. No quotes, no explanation of what is the scope of binding in law, in discipline, in liturgy.

    In reply nr.134 ElwinRansom1970 offered: The Canon is the anaphora, or Eucharistic prayer, for the Roman Rite.
    The Canon begins properly with Te Igitur and concludes with the Per Ipsum. The Canon is unchanged from the VIIth century until 1962 addition of the name of St. Joseph. No explanation of the relationship between liturgy and the discipline.

    At this time only Angelus has given direct quotes concerning the immutability of the Canon in replies ns. 29 and 44. There are no quotes  supporting the possibility of any changes to the Canon. 

    To return on the original path, I provide the quote from the study of the rubrics of the Roman Missal: "The sacred liturgy consists in: 
    (i) The sacrificial liturgy (the celebration of the Mass),
    (ii) The sacramental liturgy (the making and administration of the sacraments and sacramentals),
    (iii) The epenetic liturgy (the singing and recitation of the Canonical Hours)
    Of these three parts the most important, and the centre of the entire liturgy, is the Sacrifice. This is prepared for, and duly acknowledged by, the Divine Office." (p. 5 The Celebration of Mass, Rev. J.B. O'Connell, The Bruce Publishing Co. Milwaukee 1964)

    The venture into "Quod Nobis" and the language used as compared to "Quo Primum" is important, but one must understand the difference between the epenetic and sacrificial liturgy. I dare say, the sacrificial liturgy, has the sacramental part in it, while the epenetic does not.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #179 on: February 07, 2024, 03:30:23 PM »
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  • I

    At this time only Angelus has given direct quotes concerning the immutability of the Canon in replies ns. 29 and 44. There are no quotes  supporting the possibility of any changes to the Canon.

    Both I and Ladislaus have addressed the contention that quotes must be provided for indicating the Canon can be changed. The pope has a "total fullness of supreme power" (Pastor Aeturnus) and if you want to impose limitations on that power the burden is on you to provide the authority for saying the Pope can't change the Canon.

    For example, I have provided quotes regarding the power of the Church and pope to declare "new rites" and alter existing rites (the Council of Trent and Pius XXII in Mediator Dei) and I, contrary to you, have identified authority or proof of when that power is limited: the form of the sacraments cannot be changed, particularly those given by Christ in specie - not by the Church, the pope or anyone.

    All we've seen about the "Canon can't be changed" is a quotation from the lesser authority of the CE, which merely indicates that the Canon is pure, and I believe notes that its form had been fixed for quite awhile. Those are factual observations about the Canon contained in the TLM, and not limitations on papal power - as if the CE could be a authoritative source to do such a thing. The CE is merely a reference, and in turn points to true authority that it describes . . . so where is it?

    Where is the authority limiting what is otherwise understood to be a full, complete and unlimited power (Pastor Aeturnus).

    The burden is on you, my friend, to identify the authority saying the pope cannot change the Canon.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.