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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

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Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 52103 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2024, 09:41:45 AM »
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    • Fr. Wathen did not reprimand priests who included St. Joseph in the Canon.  Fr. Wathen was ordained in 1958 and presumably used the 1955 Missal when he was ordained, for his first Mass.  I only served Mass for Fr. Wathen perhaps half a dozen times and cannot recall if he said the Mass with St. Joseph in the Canon. 

    Fr. Wathen's  references to Quo Primum are in the context of the the New Mass, and the bastardization of the Latin Mass, especially the words of consecration.  It is arguable that the words of the New Mass are not spoken in the 1st person, but the 3rd person, "Christ said, this is my body..."  When I attended the New Mass in my teen years it seems as though the NO priests changed person quite often during the New Mass. 
     
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #76 on: January 31, 2024, 09:56:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 31, 2024, 09:39:54 AM
    Your paradigm relies upon the a faulty legal analysis to explain why Montini had no authority to change the Mass, because you refuse to accept the fact that Popes are protected by the Holy Spirit from vitiating (damaging) the Sacred Liturgy.  Because Montini wrecked the Mass, that's a clear indication of the fact that Montini lacked said protection, i.e. that he was not the pope.
    You did not, because you cannot prove this, because it's not faulty in the least. I mean what the heck, you even agree that the popes' authority is limited.

    If you read Quo Primum, you will find that it offers no exceptions regarding which liturgy is to be used in the Roman Rite "henceforth now and forever" throughout the whole Church on earth. Did he have the authority to bind the Roman Church to that Mass forever or not?

    It's not a trick question.

    We, (including you) say yes, he had that authority.

    Because the popes' authority is limited, it is limited to where a successor cannot discard this liturgy....because his authority is limited.

    It has nothing whatsoever to do with the idea that "it's as simple as the fact that Montini was no pope."
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #77 on: January 31, 2024, 09:58:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 31, 2024, 09:56:31 AM
    You did not, because you cannot prove this, because it's not faulty in the least. I mean what the heck, you even agree that the popes' authority is limited.

    So the Pope's authority is unlimited and he can change Divine Law?

    You don't even realize the inherent contradiction due to your self-serving agenda.

    If Pope St. Pius V can bind Pope St. Pius X, then the authority of Pope St. Pius X is "limited".
    If Pope St. Pius V cannot bind Pope St. Pius X, then the authority of Pope St. Pius V is "limited".

    You can't have it both ways.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Another bull by Pius V, "Quod a Nobis" (regarding the Breviary)
    « Reply #78 on: January 31, 2024, 10:05:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on January 31, 2024, 09:22:45 AM
    Dear DecemRationis,
    What is the difference between The Breviary and the Canon of the Mass?

    Dear Texana,

    If you have something to say to contribute, please proceed.  

    DR
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #79 on: January 31, 2024, 10:10:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 31, 2024, 09:58:18 AM
    So the Pope's authority is unlimited and he can change Divine Law?

    You don't even realize the inherent contradiction due to your self-serving agenda.

    If Pope St. Pius V can bind Pope St. Pius X, then the authority of Pope St. Pius X is "limited".
    If Pope St. Pius V cannot bind Pope St. Pius X, then the authority of Pope St. Pius V is "limited".

    You can't have it both ways.

    Right.

    The authority of the Pope is of course bound by divine law. 

    The rite of the Mass, including the prayers in the Canon, is not a matter of divine law. What is a matter of divine law is the form of the sacrament, given us in specie by Christ and contained in the inerrant Gospels.  
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #80 on: January 31, 2024, 10:14:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: OABrownson1876 on January 31, 2024, 09:41:45 AM
    Fr. Wathen did not reprimand priests who included St. Joseph in the Canon.  Fr. Wathen was ordained in 1958 and presumably used the 1955 Missal when he was ordained, for his first Mass.  I only served Mass for Fr. Wathen perhaps half a dozen times and cannot recall if he said the Mass with St. Joseph in the Canon. 

    Fr. Wathen's  references to Quo Primum are in the context of the the New Mass, and the bastardization of the Latin Mass, especially the words of consecration.  It is arguable that the words of the New Mass are not spoken in the 1st person, but the 3rd person, "Christ said, this is my body..."  When I attended the New Mass in my teen years it seems as though the NO priests changed person quite often during the New Mass.
     


    OA,

    Those priests who used 3rd person in the consecration were renegades and violating the rubrics of the New Mass. 

    The TLM had its renegades too . . . too, too many. And no doubt they are more in the NO, but neither rite is implicated in that regard. 

    DR
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #81 on: January 31, 2024, 10:21:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 31, 2024, 09:58:18 AM
    So the Pope's authority is unlimited and he can change Divine Law?

    You don't even realize the inherent contradiction due to your self-serving agenda.

    If Pope St. Pius V can bind Pope St. Pius X, then the authority of Pope St. Pius X is "limited".
    If Pope St. Pius V cannot bind Pope St. Pius X, then the authority of Pope St. Pius V is "limited".

    You can't have it both ways.
    Are you deef?
    Where did I say the pope's authority is unlimited?

    Did Pope St. Pius V have the authority to bind the Roman Church to that Mass forever or not? ANSWER THE QUESTION.


    The popes' authority is limited - got that?
    Because his authority is limited, he cannot change or discard the liturgy - got that?

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #82 on: January 31, 2024, 10:22:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on January 31, 2024, 10:10:37 AM
    Right.

    The authority of the Pope is of course bound by divine law.

    The rite of the Mass, including the prayers in the Canon, is not a matter of divine law. What is a matter of divine law is the form of the sacrament, given us in specie by Christ and contained in the inerrant Gospels. 


    Did Pope St. Pius V have the authority to bind the Roman Church to that Mass forever or not?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #83 on: January 31, 2024, 10:36:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 31, 2024, 10:22:49 AM
    Did Pope St. Pius V have the authority to bind the Roman Church to that Mass forever or not?

    No, he did not have the authority to bind future popes from modifying the rite of the Mass.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #84 on: January 31, 2024, 10:43:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on January 31, 2024, 10:36:40 AM
    No, he did not have the authority to bind future popes from modifying the rite of the Mass.

    Then you are saying that Pope St. Pius V did not have the authority to bind the Roman Church at all, why did he even bother? You are saying that Pope St. Pius V attempted to do something which he had no authority to do.  Most of Quo Primum should, as it is below, be crossed out. That is what you're saying.

    Quote
    Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother
    and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than
    that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the
    provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches, be they
    secular or religious, both of men and of women – even of military orders – and of churches or chapels
    without a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in
    accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church. This Missal is to be used by all churches, even by
    those which in their authorization are made exempt, whether by Apostolic indult, custom, or privilege, or
    even if by oath or official confirmation of the Holy See, or have their rights and faculties guaranteed to them
    by any other manner whatsoever.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #85 on: January 31, 2024, 10:57:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 31, 2024, 10:43:21 AM
    Then you are saying that Pope St. Pius V did not have the authority to bind the Roman Church at all, why did he even bother? You are saying that Pope St. Pius V attempted to do something which he had no authority to do.  Most of Quo Primum should, as it is below, be crossed out. That is what you're saying.

    Stubborn - of course Pius V bound the Roman Church to follow his law during his reign, and had the supreme jurisdiction to do so. He was responsible for the government of the Church during his reign in the 16th century, and he did what he thought should be done with his authority. His authority didn't reach to, or bind, what Pius X did and thought best for the Church liturgically or in its office of prayer in the early 20th century. 

    What is the problem here?
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #86 on: January 31, 2024, 11:00:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 31, 2024, 10:43:21 AM
    Then you are saying that Pope St. Pius V did not have the authority to bind the Roman Church at all, why did he even bother? You are saying that Pope St. Pius V attempted to do something which he had no authority to do.  Most of Quo Primum should, as it is below, be crossed out. That is what you're saying.

    Pius V apparently said the same thing about his reform to the breviary, which future popes reformed, altered and changed nonetheless. The cited language is irrelevant. The argument that the Missal of Pius V is binding must depend on other than the decree Quo Primum.

    That's the relevance of Quo in Nobis.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #87 on: January 31, 2024, 11:01:49 AM »
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    • Quote
    If Pope St. Pius V can bind Pope St. Pius X, then the authority of Pope St. Pius X is "limited".

    If Pope St. Pius V cannot bind Pope St. Pius X, then the authority of Pope St. Pius V is "limited".
    We can't fully use human logic to describe the papacy because it is a spiritual mystery.  And popes are not simply kings, but also representative of Christ.  Thus, in certain areas, popes can "bind" future popes, because when the pope acts according to the Holy Ghost, then God is making a decision.  Since God does not change, then certain decisions cannot be changed in the future.  God cannot deceive, nor contradict Himself, so certain papal actions are fixed, forever, because to change it in the future would admit God can err.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #88 on: January 31, 2024, 11:08:55 AM »
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    • Quote
    No, he did not have the authority to bind future popes from modifying the rite of the Mass.
    Yes, he did.  Because his actions are Christ's actions. 

    Quote
    The authority of the Pope is of course bound by divine law.

    The rite of the Mass, including the prayers in the Canon, is not a matter of divine law.
    The Pope is also bound by Scripture and Tradition.  And much of what is in the Canon comes from these 2 areas.  If you read the book "How Christ said the First Mass" (find it on archive.org), it goes into excruciating detail, about how most of the Mass is a continuation of the Israelite ceremonies.  Since God created the religion of the Old Testament DIRECTLY, and gave it to the Jєωs, this liturgy is of Divine origin.  As Christ said, "I came not to destroy but to fulfill."  The Catholic Mass is the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrifice.  The Old Law was not destroyed but perfected.  The % of the liturgy which came from the Old Testament is very, very high.
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    Offline Philip

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #89 on: January 31, 2024, 11:10:22 AM »
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    • Can someone please explain how this works in practice.

    Take Friday as an example:

    Pius V Missal:  Purification of the BVM, Double of the Second Class.  John XXIII Missal: II Class.

    Pius V Missal:  At the blessing of candles the celebrant wears a violet cope, the deacon and subdeacon violet folded chasubles.  John XXIII Missal: The celebrant wears a white cope, the ministers white dalmatic and tunicle.

    Pius V Missal:  At the prayers of blessing the long conclusion of the orations is used.  John XXIII Missal: the short conclusion is used.

    Pius V Missal:  After the prayers of blessing the antiphon Exsurge is sung folllowed, as we are in Septuagesima by Flectamus genua etc.  John XXII Missal:  Exsurge etc is entirely absent.

    Pius V Missal: After the procession the ministers change into white vestments and begin Mass, as usual, with Introibo, Ps 42, Confiteor etc.  John XXIII Missal: prayers at the foot of the altar omitted.

    Pius V Missal:  Celebrant reads epistle and gospel at the altar in addition to ministers chanting them.  John XXIII Missal: Celebrant does not read the epistle and Gospel but listens to them proclaimed.

    Etc, etc.

    Both Missals have Quo primum printed at the front of them.  Quo primum, as noted in thread above says no change may be made, nothing added or removed.  So, if it is binding, with the example of just this one day, why are there differences?
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