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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

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Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 35992 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #270 on: March 18, 2024, 09:45:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on March 18, 2024, 07:22:58 PM
    Dear Ladislaus,
    I refer you to my January 10, 2024 thread.

    Yes or no would be pretty simple to type, quicker than this non-answer.
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #271 on: March 18, 2024, 10:10:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: jdfaber on March 18, 2024, 08:33:37 PM
    But this isn't what Suarez and the Salmanticenses are referring to. Suarez himself says, "Now in the present matter, we do not use the word ‘ceremony’ in this broadest meaning, but we adapt it to the sacramental ceremony, and by Theologians it is usually simply called a ‘sacramental’. By this word we mean certain religious actions or circuмstances, which the Church observes in the administration of the sacraments, or the oblation of the sacrifice, and which are apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice, such as, in Baptism for example, the Unction, the Exorcism, and other things of this sort" (read here). The Salmanticenses likewise clearly state that they are talking about, to quote you, "the ceremonial rites used in the solemn administration of the Sacraments."
    Dear jdfaber,

    "By this word we mean certain religious actions or circuмstances, which the Church observes in the administration of the sacraments, or the oblation of the sacrifice, and which are apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice..." 
    The sacraments consist of matter and form to which is added the intention of the minister. The rite of the sacrament binds these together. In the case of the Holy Mass this role is fulfilled by the Canon. The Canon is the rite that contains the essence, or substance of the sacrifice which is Transubstantiation, it is not apart from the substance of the sacrifice, it also provides the rubrics for it.

    In other words:

    The substance of the Canon is the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The substance of the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the form of Transubstantiation and the matter of bread and wine. The substance of the form are the words of the institution. The substance of the matter is leaven or unleavened bread and sacramental wine.
    The Canon without the Sacrament of the Eucharist does not exist, its only purpose is the sacrifice.
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #272 on: March 18, 2024, 10:16:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 18, 2024, 09:45:23 PM
    Yes or no would be pretty simple to type, quicker than this non-answer.
    Dear Ladislaus,
    Sometimes yes or no questions lead to wrong conclusions. Please sacrifice and reread the thread, you will have the correct answer.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #273 on: March 18, 2024, 10:38:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on March 18, 2024, 10:16:13 PM
    Dear Ladislaus,
    Sometimes yes or no questions lead to wrong conclusions. Please sacrifice and reread the thread, you will have the correct answer.

    You're just avoiding giving an answer.  I'm not going to re-read this nonsensical thread so you can escape answering a very clear question.

    Does a pope who adds a name to the Communicantes in the Canon (after Quo Primum) incur an anathema?  Either he does or he does not.  There's nothing gray there.  You could then qualify it with considerations of their subjective guilt, etc., or whatever dancing you want to try ... but the question her is whether they objectively incur the anathema.  Yes or no?

    As for your arrogant assertion that the "correct answer" is in your thread, you couldn't be more wrong, and more wrong about this issue, and yet you have the hubris to asser that yours is "the correct answer".  You were soundly refuted on your thread.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #274 on: March 18, 2024, 10:39:59 PM »
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    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #275 on: March 19, 2024, 08:44:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on March 18, 2024, 10:10:49 PM
    "By this word we mean certain religious actions or circuмstances, which the Church observes in the administration of the sacraments, or the oblation of the sacrifice, and which are apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice..."
    The sacraments consist of matter and form to which is added the intention of the minister. The rite of the sacrament binds these together. In the case of the Holy Mass this role is fulfilled by the Canon. The Canon is the rite that contains the essence, or substance of the sacrifice which is Transubstantiation, it is not apart from the substance of the sacrifice, it also provides the rubrics for it.

    In other words:

    The substance of the Canon is the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The substance of the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the form of Transubstantiation and the matter of bread and wine. The substance of the form are the words of the institution. The substance of the matter is leaven or unleavened bread and sacramental wine.
    The Canon without the Sacrament of the Eucharist does not exist, its only purpose is the sacrifice.
    Suarez writes, "And thus it is certain, that the Canon, according to that form which now is said in the Mass, is neither of the substance of the sacrifice, nor instituted by Christ the Lord: for such institution is nowhere recorded" (here).
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #276 on: March 19, 2024, 09:23:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: jdfaber on March 19, 2024, 08:44:53 AM
    Suarez writes, "And thus it is certain, that the Canon, according to that form which now is said in the Mass, is neither of the substance of the sacrifice, nor instituted by Christ the Lord: for such institution is nowhere recorded" (here).
    Dear jdfaber,

    As most of the time Fr. Suarez is right. The Canon is not the substance of the sacrifice, it contains the substance of the sacrifice. As far as institution of the Canon, just because there is no written record of it does not necessarily mean that particular anaphoras were not presented to the Apostles, by Christ Himself. In the west we suffer from analytical minutia hunting, in the east the clergy realizes their inability to comprehend everything God instituted, and they are wise enough to leave some things untouched.
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    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #277 on: March 19, 2024, 11:39:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on March 19, 2024, 09:23:58 AM
    The Canon is not the substance of the sacrifice, it contains the substance of the sacrifice.
    In other words, "the religious actions or circuмstances … which are apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice"
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #278 on: March 19, 2024, 09:49:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: jdfaber on March 19, 2024, 11:39:08 AM
    In other words, "the religious actions or circuмstances … which are apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice"
    Dear jdfaber,

    Part of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice is the Offertory. The Canon contains the substance of the sacrifice, it is part of it and cannot be separated from it.

    For instance: these are the words introducing the Transubstantiation:
    Tenens ambabus manibus Hostiam inter indices et pollices, profert verba consecrationis secrete, distincte, et attente super Hostiam, et simul super omnes, si plures sint consecrandae. Without this rubric a priest may say the following words of Hoc est enim Corpus meum, just as he would read them from a Bible or as you just read them. We are so used to priests knowing what to do, that we forget that someone had to teach them, these instructions are contained in the rubrics.

    I have an idea why our minds do not meet on this.
    1)The sacrifice is a wider term from Transubstantiation, the Offertory is required for the sacrifice, but not for Transubstantiation. Without the Offertory, what happens is not a sacrifice. So a priest saying the words of Transubstantiation outside of the Mass, without the use of rubrics, does not offer a sacrifice.
    2)Absence of the rubrics will cause a priest to merely say the words without connecting them with the matter and displaying the proper intention. The sacrifice will not take place, because there will be no Sacrament.

        In conclusion: the religious actions and circuмstances provided in the Canon are not apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice.
    In other words: the Canon is not the substance of the sacrifice, but is not apart from it.
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    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #279 on: March 19, 2024, 09:56:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on March 17, 2024, 09:00:39 PM
    Conclusion: If Canon XIII of the Seventh Session of Trent is a dogmatic statement and not just a disciplinary rule with a serious penalty, then it should fulfill the requirements of infallibility. If it does fulfill the aforementioned requirements, one of which is binding the Universal Church, it also binds a pope. By codification of the rites of the Sacraments, the Council of Trent intended to preserve them and protect them from changes.
    If something is taught dogmatically, it was true before it was taught. It didn't begin to be true when it was taught. If your reading of the canon is correct, then would it not have always been true that no one could change the rites without offense? And yet we know that saints did this very thing. Was St Gregory the Great acting contrary to the faith when he added to the canon?
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #280 on: March 20, 2024, 07:52:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: jdfaber on March 19, 2024, 09:56:52 PM
    If something is taught dogmatically, it was true before it was taught. It didn't begin to be true when it was taught. If your reading of the canon is correct, then would it not have always been true that no one could change the rites without offense? And yet we know that saints did this very thing. Was St Gregory the Great acting contrary to the faith when he added to the canon?
    Dear jdfaber,

    The dogma of the Immaculate Conception has not been proclaimed when St. Thomas was alive, he was free to express his opinion on the subject. It so happens, he was wrong.

     Is it true that upon Pope St. Gregory's proclamation, the Roman populus was ready to kill him? Or is it just a wishful story of an abused Catholic? If the story is true, it is a witness to the Faith of the people of that time. Where was the same fervor when Pope John XXIII introduced the name of St. Joseph? Where were we when Pope Paul VI got rid of the Canon altogether? What is the state of our Faith?

    The words "Diesque nostras in tua pace disponas" remain in the Canon as the part of an organic development, since the dogma has not been proclaimed till Trent. 
    Which other saints added anything else to the Canon? 
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