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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 51364 times)

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Offline Texana

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #225 on: February 12, 2024, 08:28:23 PM »
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  • Try this: ed. Benedictus PP. XV, 1920.  See p. 348 - 349 of the Missale Romanum

    https://archive.org/details/MissaleRomanumBenedettoXV/page/n451/mode/2up

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #226 on: February 12, 2024, 08:31:03 PM »
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  • Yee-hah!:cowboy:


    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #227 on: February 12, 2024, 08:41:19 PM »
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  • Unfortunately, the Gregorian Sacramentary does not use the term Canon Missae. Take a look at 13v here.

    The 1496 is likewise unhelpful.

    In the 1570 Missale, however, we see that Canon Missae is at the top of the page until the end of the ordinary of the Mass.

    Likewise, this missal from 1947 has Canon Missae at the top of the page until the end of the Ordo missae.

    However, if you peruse the Ritus servandus at the beginning of the Missale, you will see that the Canon Missae begins after the Sanctus and seems to end just before the Pater noster.

    It is interesting to note that the 1962 Missale switches back to Ordo Missae at the top of the page at the Pater noster.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #228 on: February 12, 2024, 08:57:47 PM »
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  • There’s two canons of the mass - general and specific.  General = everything after the epistle/gospel, because everything preceding the credo changes (introit, collect, gradual, epistle and gospel). 

    The specific canon is one of the 3 principle parts of the mass - offertory, canon, communion. 

    This is why the word ‘canon’ is printed at the top of the missal til the end of mass.  It’s referring to the canon GENERAL (ie mass of the faithful), as opposed to the changing prayers (introit, collect, etc) of the ‘mass of the catechumens’. 

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #229 on: February 12, 2024, 09:16:28 PM »
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  • But there are variable parts: the Secrest, the Preface, the Postcommunions.


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #230 on: February 12, 2024, 09:24:59 PM »
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  • Unfortunately, the Gregorian Sacramentary does not use the term Canon Missae. Take a look at 13v here.

    The 1496 is likewise unhelpful.

    In the 1570 Missale, however, we see that Canon Missae is at the top of the page until the end of the ordinary of the Mass.

    Likewise, this missal from 1947 has Canon Missae at the top of the page until the end of the Ordo missae.

    However, if you peruse the Ritus servandus at the beginning of the Missale, you will see that the Canon Missae begins after the Sanctus and seems to end just before the Pater noster.

    It is interesting to note that the 1962 Missale switches back to Ordo Missae at the top of the page at the Pater noster.
    Dear jdfaber,

    Excellent job, thank you! Now we know when the switch was made and who is to blame. Why was it important for the liturgical innovators to change where the Canon of the Mass ends?

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #231 on: February 12, 2024, 09:34:19 PM »
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  • I get the impression that you already have an answer to your question. Please enligthen us.

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #232 on: February 12, 2024, 09:42:41 PM »
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  • By the way, if you take a look at the Rubricae generales Missalis of the same 1947 Missale, you will read that the Canon ends before the Communion: Expleto Canone, et aliis omnibus usque ad Communionem, ea peracta, dicitur Communio.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #233 on: February 13, 2024, 05:17:20 AM »
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  • You misunderstand me. Let me rephrase: If Pius V had not issued Quo primum, would there be any grounds for a priest to refuse the NOM? In other words, is the right to the traditional Mass only based in Quo primum, or does the right exist indepedent of Quo primum?
    IMO, yes, priests do and would have the right to refuse the NOM because of what it is and why it is.

     What it is is a mockery of the True Mass, it apes the true Mass. "Why it is" is to replace the True Mass. IOW, the whole purpose of the NOM is not to worship God and many priests knew this when it was first perpetrated. But the most obvious reason they would have the right to refuse it is because it was a break from tradition.


    Quote

    Furthermore, St. Pius V did not restore the rite to "its original," which is patently false from a historical point of view, nor did he claim to. The Latin says: ad pristinam Missale Sanctorum Patrum normam ac ritum restituerunt. It does not say "the original;" the word is "pristine." Moreover, the Holy Fathers referred to are not what we call the "Church Fathers." Rather, it refers to more recent times. This can be confirmed if you compare the 1570 Missale with the 1474 printing.
    Quo Primum says they restored it to "the original form and rite of the Holy Fathers."

    "...they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers."

    Comparing the 1472 Missal to the 1570 Missal should be expected to be different, they should have the same prayers but likely they are arranged differently. At least I think that's how it pretty much *should* be, and that's what a quick scan looks like to me.

    We can quibble forever about who is being referred to by the term ""Holy Fathers," regardless, the Mass of Pius V is the Tridentine Mass, is the only Mass of the Roman Rite, is obligatory on all Catholics of that rite forever and should never change. That's the Law of Quo Primum in a nutshell.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #234 on: February 13, 2024, 06:39:56 AM »
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  • the Mass of Pius V is the Tridentine Mass, is the only Mass of the Roman Rite, is obligatory on all Catholics of that rite forever and should never change. That's the Law of Quo Primum in a nutshell. 
    Catholics do not belong to Rites, they belong to Churches -- 24 Churches in the 1 Catholic Communion to be exact.

    Churches have Rites, sometimes a single Rite as the Maronite Church uses solely a West Syriac liturgy (one that has, alas, been woefully Latinised ala the Bugini Novus Ordo reforms) and, therefore, bears the name Maronite Rite. Other Churches possess multiple Rites, such as the Latin Church to which most here at CI belong that uses the Roman Rite (in various local uses), the Ambrosian Rite, the Mozarabic Rite, the Braga Rite, and the defunct Gallican Rite (better called the Gaullish or Frankish Rite to distinguish it from the Gallican uses of the Roman Rite in 18th-century & 19th-century France).

    Stubborn, what you do is rip Quo Primum from its historical context, assign to its text a kind of authority that it does not nor cannot posses, and fail to acknowledge that the legislation of Quo Primum has been derogated several times by Popes subsequent to St. Pius V as well as by the custom of local Churches, such as Paris and Lyon which had uses alternate to that of Rome develop in the centuries immediately following Quo Primum.

    Amongst those who hold Montini to have been a valid Pope, the best of their liturgical scholars understand the 1964 liturgical instruction Inter Œcuмenici and the 1969 Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum to be derogations to Quo Primum. The lesser of their scholars together with the average Conciliar seminary graduates hold these docuмents, particularly Missale Romanum, to be obrogations of Quo Primum. (Since I do not hold Montini to be a true Pope, this latter case is a moot point to me).
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #235 on: February 13, 2024, 07:57:47 AM »
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  • Quo Primum says they restored it to "the original form and rite of the Holy Fathers."

    "...they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers."
     
    Except the bull does not say that, as I pointed out to you. We now and they then knew how much the Roman rite had developed since Gregory the Great. "Original" is a poor and faulty translation.


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #236 on: February 13, 2024, 09:40:33 AM »
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  • By the way, if you take a look at the Rubricae generales Missalis of the same 1947 Missale, you will read that the Canon ends before the Communion: Expleto Canone, et aliis omnibus usque ad Communionem, ea peracta, dicitur Communio.
    Dear jdfaber,

    To which communion is it referring, Communion of the priest or communion of the faithful? What are "allis omnibus", "ea peracta"; what are those "all other things" and "those performed"? Thanks for your help!

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #237 on: February 13, 2024, 10:39:51 AM »
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  • Dear jdfaber,

    To which communion is it referring, Communion of the priest or communion of the faithful? What are "allis omnibus", "ea peracta"; what are those "all other things" and "those performed"? Thanks for your help!
    It is certainly not referring to the communion of the faithful, since that was not considered part of the Mass. Evidently, aliis omnibus usque ad Communionem refers to everything that is after the Canon up to the priest's communion. Ea peracta refers to the priest's communion and its completion.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #238 on: February 13, 2024, 11:00:06 AM »
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  • Quote
    But there are variable parts: the Secret, the Preface, the Postcommunions.
    But these are minimal, compared to the 'mass of the catechumens', which is mostly made up of changing prayers.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #239 on: February 13, 2024, 11:25:13 AM »
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  • I get the impression that you already have an answer to your question. Please enligthen us.
    Dear jdfaber,

    St. Joseph will do it. The way he has always done things.

    Let us continue with the main topic. A Sacrament is a visible sign of the invisible grace. Any sacrament consists of a form (words), matter, and the intention of a minister.

    At the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we have a Missale Romanum on the altar, the host on the paten, and wine and water in the cruets, and a validly ordained priest standing there willing to do what the Church does. Now what? All the parts needed for the Sacrament of the Eucharist are there. What is needed to effect the Sacrament? What is needed (in the case of the Eucharist) to administer it to the faithful?

    There are instructions what to do, when, and how; those instructions are called "rubrics". 
    (I know you know all this, but we need to remember that we are not the only ones trying to learn and get to the bottom of the matter, so let's work together.)

    The question is: What is the combination of the form, matter, intention, and the action of the minister called?