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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 85226 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #190 on: February 08, 2024, 06:52:24 AM »
As far as Quo Primum goes it's actually moot point, because contrary to the sedes in this thread, we know with certainty that Quo Primum was never abrogated, if for no other reason than because pope Benedict XVI told us that Quo Primum was never abrogated in his Motu.

Yes another dishonest red herring, along with a begging of the question.  This thread has nothing to do with Ratzinger but the hypothetical question of whether a legitimate Pope in principle could make an addition or change to the Canon despite Quo Primum ... and not whether Montini et al. had abrogated it.  You also beg the question that Ratzinger was even the Pope and that he was telling the truth rather than making the statement as a tactic to suck Traditional Catholics back into the Conciliar Church (as Ganswein later admitted he had intended to do).  That's why the OP used the hypothetical example of a Pius XII, to take that consideration off the table.  Whether a Pope HAS abrogated Quo Primum, or rather attempted to, is entirely beside the point.  What we're debating is whether a Pope CAN abrogate it.  But it's one distraction after another, one dishonest logical fallacy after another, in a pathetic and desperate attempt to cling to the notion that you aren't wrong.  You clearly are.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #191 on: February 08, 2024, 07:04:33 AM »
"Sedes" aren't missing anything, but you seem to be missing your reading comprehension skills.  This affirms the principle that an equal cannot bind an equal, and then Father says that a Pope SHOULD not use this authority except for grave reasons, not that he CANNOT.
You blinded yourself to the part where he said: "no pope can ever licitly abrogate the bull of St. Pius V."
Well, it's right there and as I said already, this is the way the faithful always believed, particularly in the pre-sede era.

Quote
And you still haven't addressed, other than by your pathetic and ignorant claim that the Breviary is not Liturgy, which distinction has nothing to do with the matter at hand, that Pope St. Pius V also promulgated the Breviary for in perpetuum, "forever", the same language he uses in Quo Primum.
It has everything to do with the matter at hand. You do not differentiate, but you should.

Quote
You've been soundly refuted but you absolutely refuse to admit that your wrong, and in other areas the more absurd are your claims the more pertinaciously you cling to them.  It's childish and pathetic.
Although you blind yourself to the fact, you can't refute anything when you only see what you want to see and disregard the rest. As such, you've only dug yourself into a deeper hole while thinking you've refuted something.





Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #192 on: February 08, 2024, 07:09:47 AM »
Yes another dishonest red herring, along with a begging of the question.  This thread has nothing to do with Ratzinger but the hypothetical question of whether a legitimate Pope in principle could make an addition or change to the Canon despite Quo Primum ... and not whether Montini et al. had abrogated it.  You also beg the question that Ratzinger was even the Pope and that he was telling the truth rather than making the statement as a tactic to suck Traditional Catholics back into the Conciliar Church (as Ganswein later admitted he had intended to do).
Only sedes beg the question as regards the status of popes, it's their foundation. And everyone knows Quo Primum was never abrogated - except you and apparently some other sedes.

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #193 on: February 08, 2024, 07:10:34 AM »
Benedict XVI did not refer to Quo primum at all in SP.  It is not in the text or even in the footnotes:

https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/la/motu_proprio/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20070707_summorum-pontificuм.html

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #194 on: February 08, 2024, 07:14:32 AM »
Benedict XVI did not refer to Quo primum at all in SP.  It is not in the text or even in the footnotes:

https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/la/motu_proprio/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20070707_summorum-pontificuм.html
It's a moot point, Pope Benedict XVI said in his motu that the the true Mass was never abrogated, because the true Mass was never abrogated the law of Quo Primum was never abrogated.