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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 51837 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #150 on: February 01, 2024, 09:09:15 AM »
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  • Actually, Quo Primum lays out the rules quite clearly.

    1.  The latin rite of St Pius V can be used in perpetuity (allowance/permission to use).
    2.  No one can change, alter or add anything to the rite (no changes to the rite at all).
    3.  ONLY this rite can be used.  No other rites are allowed (strict use of this rite is commanded).

    **Exceptions exist for ancient rites (i.e. Benedictine/Dominican) within the latin rite.  Except for a few prayers, these rites are nearly identical to the latin rite.

    The loophole in Quo Primum, is that it never forbid a future pope from creating a new rite (which V2 did); but it does forbid it's use, in 2 ways - it says only the latin rite can be used and the latin rite MUST be used.  So it commanded such from 2 different angles, to make it clear.  But the Modernists found the loophole which allowed them to create a new rite (which is technically legal), and then they used half-truths, lies, manipulation and pressure from bishops to push people into accepting this illegal rite.

    So you're relying upon a false reading of Quo Primum . . . and nothing else?

    Pius XII said this in his encyclical about the Mass, Mediator Dei:

    Quote
    58. It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.

    Again, mind you, this is in an encyclical specifically dealing with the liturgy.

    What was Pius XII thinking, eh?

    I do know that he was aware of the same language in Quo Primum that you say binds the "Sovereign Pontiff" - who he says is not bound in creating or modifying rites. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #151 on: February 01, 2024, 09:25:53 AM »
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  • You just keep flapping your lips without ever even acknowledging the question at hand - not something you should like being famous for, but it is what it is.

    I've been addressing the question at hand, which is whether the language of Quo Primum binds popes or just everyone else except popes.  Obviously the answer is everyone else except popes, since ...

    1) authorities cannot bind their equals
    2) St. Pius V used the same language for the Breviary

    Your only rebuttal is to ignore #1 and to claim that the Breviary is not Liturgy, and so "forever" means forever where it comes to the Mass and "forever" doesn't mean forever where it comes to the Breviary (which, BTW, is also Liturgy).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #152 on: February 01, 2024, 09:37:00 AM »
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  • Quote
    Pius XII said this in his encyclical about the Mass, Mediator Dei:

    Quote
    Quote
    58. It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.


    As I pointed out on another thread, pt 58 starts with "It follows from this...", which means this point must be understood in the context of the previous points.  Go read pt 50, which says that the Divine parts of the mass can never be changed, which is what Paul6 did, when he changed the consecration formula for the new mass (right there in bold print in his docuмent), which is directly contradictory to the Council of Florence, and also Quo Primum.

    The second point, is that (in theory) Paul6 had the power to delete/edit the law of Quo Primum before he issued his new mass.  But he didn't.  So if he chooses not to discard a law, then he must abide by its rules.  Thus, Quo Primum (as Benedict XVI confirmed) is still in force.  Thus, the new mass is illegal.

    The third point, is that Pius XII's changes to the liturgy (which culminated in the 1962 missal...this was Pius XII's work, not John 23's), directly references Quo Primum and says that his revised version of the missal goes along with Quo Primum's rules, and is part of this law, and not contrary to it.  So, even though your faulty reading of Mediator Dei would put Pius XII at odds against Quo Primum, this never happened in reality.  The opposite happened -- Pius XII was in agreement with Quo Primum.

    And, indirectly, Paul6 was in agreement with Quo Primum too (as have all of the V2 popes, none of whom overruled this law, when (in theory) they could have).  As St Thomas Moore told us, in matters of law, "Silence gives consent."  Thus, the V2 popes, by their silence in accepting Quo Primum, and not overruling/changing it, give consent to its rules.  Thus, they must abide by these rules (under pain of sin) just like every other catholic.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #153 on: February 01, 2024, 10:01:20 AM »
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  • I've been addressing the question at hand, which is whether the language of Quo Primum binds popes or just everyone else except popes.  Obviously the answer is everyone else except popes, since ...

    1) authorities cannot bind their equals
    2) St. Pius V used the same language for the Breviary

    Your only rebuttal is to ignore #1 and to claim that the Breviary is not Liturgy, and so "forever" means forever where it comes to the Mass and "forever" doesn't mean forever where it comes to the Breviary (which, BTW, is also Liturgy).
    When it comes to the Liturgy of the Roman Rite, really the only legal leg that trads have to stand on is the fact that Quo Primum is binding in perpetuity. Because we are bound, the pope has to be bound - there is no way out of this, there simply isn't.

    Of course authorities cannot bind their equals, but this is not universally true, as is the case of Quo Primum. 

    Had PPV invented his own new rite, then maybe his successors would not be bound. But that's not the case here. Here the liturgy was restored to the original from the time all the way back to the Apostles. The purpose of binding us was for the sake of unity, so that all the "priests would know which prayers to use and which rites and ceremonies they were required to observe from now on in the celebration of Masses."

    As for the Breviary, either post "the language" or forget it, it means nothing. You do not know what it says any more than anyone else here - so stop pretending that you do.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #154 on: February 01, 2024, 10:53:07 AM »
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  • Quote
    When it comes to the Liturgy of the Roman Rite, really the only legal leg that trads have to stand on is the fact that Quo Primum is binding in perpetuity. Because we are bound, the pope has to be bound - there is no way out of this, there simply isn't.
    Yes, as it stands, since none of the V2 "popes" changed Quo Primum, then they have to abide by it.  It's also a very important point that neither Paul6 or any other V2 "pope" made the new mass obligatory, or binding under pain of sin.  Because they knew that Quo Primum forbid it.  And Benedict XVI confirmed this in his motu where he said that QP "was never abrogated (i.e. ended)" and thus the True Rite/Mass "was always allowed."

    Quote
    Had PPV invented his own new rite, then maybe his successors would not be bound. But that's not the case here.
    Any pope can create his own rite (in theory), just like they can create new missals.  The point is, the new rite or missal must be Apostolic/Traditional and valid (i.e. the essence of the rite must be catholic).

    Each catholic rite is essentially the same, because they all originated from the Apostles, who learned from Christ.  So if a pope were to create a new rite, there wouldn't be much of a difference in substance, only in minor things. 

    Quote
    Here the liturgy was restored to the original from the time all the way back to the Apostles.
    Yes and no.  St Pius V restored *some* things back to the time of St Gregory the Great (600s) but he also accepted a great many things which were added/created during the 1,000 year period of Christendom, from the 500s to the 1,500s.  Example:  St Thomas Aquinas' hymns used at Benediction, the many Litanies, etc.

    The natural evolution of the liturgy of these 1,000 years was a necessary and beautiful part of the Holy Ghost's perfection of the rite.  But the things added were not essential, only minor.

    Quote
    The purpose of binding us was for the sake of unity, so that all the "priests would know which prayers to use and which rites and ceremonies they were required to observe from now on in the celebration of Masses."
    Yes, there were so many things added during this 1,000 years that it got out of hand.  So St Pius V was just saying, "Ok, everyone, the last 1,000 years have been very creative and beautiful.  Some of you have gone a little overboard with the additions, and the masses in England vs France are just too different.  We are losing Catholic unity.  So i'm going to pick the best ideas and this new missal is the one everyone should use from now on.  No more changes."


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #155 on: February 01, 2024, 11:25:10 AM »
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  • As for the Breviary, either post "the language" or forget it, it means nothing. You do not know what it says any more than anyone else here - so stop pretending that you do.

    Stubborn,

    That's a fair point. Problem is, there is no accessible translation of Quod a nobis, the breviary bull of Pius V. I have quoted, in reply #68, various quotes and claims about the bull, including:

    Quote
    the 1568 docuмent "Quod a Nobis" which introduced the new Roman breviary two years before the new missal. This docuмent contains many expressions similar to "Quo Primum" regarding, for instance, the perpetual force of law, the obligation of use in all places, and the total prohibition of adding or omitting anything.

    One of the posts I cited has a link to "Quod a nobis" in Latin:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=-cXYqusIEx8C&dq=breviarium%20romanum&pg=PP9#v=onepage&q&f=false

    That's the best I can find so far.

    It would take a lot of work, but perhaps someone who knows Latin can compare the two bulls and give some creditable review of the claim about both bulls having similar language.

    Trust, but verify. Fair enough.

    Even the "trust" I fear should be taken with a grain of salt, so . . .

    As of now, we have claims that may or may not be reliable.

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #156 on: February 01, 2024, 11:59:47 AM »
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  • Yes, as it stands, since none of the V2 "popes" changed Quo Primum, then they have to abide by it.  It's also a very important point that neither Paul6 or any other V2 "pope" made the new mass obligatory, or binding under pain of sin.  Because they knew that Quo Primum forbid it.  And Benedict XVI confirmed this in his motu where he said that QP "was never abrogated (i.e. ended)" and thus the True Rite/Mass "was always allowed."
    Any pope can create his own rite (in theory), just like they can create new missals.  The point is, the new rite or missal must be Apostolic/Traditional and valid (i.e. the essence of the rite must be catholic).

    Each catholic rite is essentially the same, because they all originated from the Apostles, who learned from Christ.  So if a pope were to create a new rite, there wouldn't be much of a difference in substance, only in minor things. 
    Yes and no.  St Pius V restored *some* things back to the time of St Gregory the Great (600s) but he also accepted a great many things which were added/created during the 1,000 year period of Christendom, from the 500s to the 1,500s.  Example:  St Thomas Aquinas' hymns used at Benediction, the many Litanies, etc.

    The natural evolution of the liturgy of these 1,000 years was a necessary and beautiful part of the Holy Ghost's perfection of the rite.  But the things added were not essential, only minor.
    Yes, there were so many things added during this 1,000 years that it got out of hand.  So St Pius V was just saying, "Ok, everyone, the last 1,000 years have been very creative and beautiful.  Some of you have gone a little overboard with the additions, and the masses in England vs France are just too different.  We are losing Catholic unity.  So i'm going to pick the best ideas and this new missal is the one everyone should use from now on.  No more changes."
    Well said!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #157 on: February 01, 2024, 12:14:26 PM »
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  • Stubborn,

    That's a fair point. Problem is, there is no accessible translation of Quod a nobis, the breviary bull of Pius V. I have quoted, in reply #68, various quotes and claims about the bull, including:

    One of the posts I cited has a link to "Quod a nobis" in Latin:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=-cXYqusIEx8C&dq=breviarium%20romanum&pg=PP9#v=onepage&q&f=false

    That's the best I can find so far.

    It would take a lot of work, but perhaps someone who knows Latin can compare the two bulls and give some creditable review of the claim about both bulls having similar language.

    Trust, but verify. Fair enough.

    Even the "trust" I fear should be taken with a grain of salt, so . . .

    As of now, we have claims that may or may not be reliable.

    DR

    I found the same things you found - if there is a copy of the docuмent on line, I'd say that it's well hidden, but if it is going to be referenced, then someone needs to produce the docuмent. 

     Regardless, I understand the need to compare QP with something, anything that will disprove the pope is bound to the Roman Liturgy of PPV, but what I don't understand, is why argue against Quo Primum? Where does that get you except into the NO?

    Per pope Pius V, all his successors have no choice, they have got to let us use that liturgy. If at anytime since QP till the end of time, any priest, bishop or pope were to forbid the use of that liturgy, they would do so illicitly because they'd be breaking the law, (and they'd also be insisting that we break the law in the process) - and if it were the pope, how could he do that when he has no authority over his predecessor PPV who made the law?





    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #158 on: February 01, 2024, 12:35:00 PM »
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  • Quote
    the 1568 docuмent "Quod a Nobis" which introduced the new Roman breviary two years before the new missal.
    St Pope Pius V introduced the new Breviary and Missal at the command of the Council of Trent.  Even Quo Primum states this, and it says something like "Now that the Breviary has been updated, we turned our attention to updating the missal."



    Quote
    but perhaps someone who knows Latin can compare the two bulls and give some creditable review of the claim about both bulls having similar language.
    Yes, they do have similar language, because it was normal, legal language used at the time (and even is used now, in some cases).  The Pope wanted to make clear that these docuмents are unchangeable (in their essential elements).  The allowance of minor changes, by future popes, goes without saying.  Because minor changes aren't real changes.  They don't affect doctrine or the essence of the liturgy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #159 on: February 01, 2024, 01:40:30 PM »
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  • Yes, as it stands, since none of the V2 "popes" changed Quo Primum, then they have to abide by it.

    Montini explicitly overrode it when he promulgated the NOM.  You don't edit "Quo Primum," but you modify it or abrogate it with subsequent legislation.  What is this "modifying"?  No pope directly modifies a previous pope's docuмent.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #160 on: February 01, 2024, 01:42:08 PM »
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  • The allowance of minor changes, by future popes, goes without saying.  Because minor changes aren't real changes.  They don't affect doctrine or the essence of the liturgy.

    Tell the above to Stubborn.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #161 on: February 01, 2024, 01:46:15 PM »
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  • We've veered off topic a bit to the NOM, whereas the original point of this thread is whether minor changes such as the addition of St. Joseph to the Canon are permissible.

    With the broader question of the NOM, this paper by Father Cekada is well worth reading ...
    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5aaf698a365f02de0c29f281/t/5eb3ceb156fa2a6cdf04bd09/1588842164809/Did+Paul+VI+Illegally+Promulgate+Novus+Ordo+Missae.pdf

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #162 on: February 01, 2024, 01:47:22 PM »
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  • Montini explicitly overrode it when he promulgated the NOM.  You don't edit "Quo Primum," but you modify it or abrogate it with subsequent legislation.  What is this "modifying"?  No pope directly modifies a previous pope's docuмent.
    As Fr. Altenbach said, if you would have listened, heaven forbid: If PPVI was going to abrogate Quo Primum, he would have to make it official using language as clear and strong or stronger than was used in Quo Primum, explicitly abrogating it.  What PPVI did was against the law of Quo Primum, it does no matter whether *you* accept that or not. He broke the law of Quo Primum.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #163 on: February 01, 2024, 01:48:40 PM »
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  • Tell the above to Stubborn.
    No, incidental changes made only by popes certainly occur, what those types of changes don't do, is they do not change the rite.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #164 on: February 01, 2024, 01:57:24 PM »
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  • Quote
    Montini explicitly overrode it when he promulgated the NOM.
    He absolutely, positively did not.  Nowhere in the docuмent does he abrogate QP and Benedict XVI confirmed this fact.

    You also had the public inquiry from JP2, wherein a commission studied the matter and said QP was not abrogated.

    Quote
    You don't edit "Quo Primum," but you modify it or abrogate it with subsequent legislation.  What is this "modifying"?
    I meant, using the correct legal term, revise.  Quo Primum has been revised over the years, the most recent revisions being the 1962 missal.  But QP, as the parent law, still is in force.  A revision is the same as a modification. 

    Quote
    No pope directly modifies a previous pope's docuмent.
    Yes, they do.  It's happened with QP multiple times.  See the intro to the 62 missal, which has language saying this missal is a revision of the previous missal (i.e. 1950s), which is part of the QP "tree" which began with Pope St Pius V.  It is made very clear that the 62 missal (and the ones which came before it) are the same as St Pius V's missal, just with minor updates to the calendar.