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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 35866 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2024, 04:57:33 PM »
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    First, it would be nice if you could provide a source for the claim that the change was done by a "papal committee."
    It was added by the 'Sacred Congregation of Rites' as one of the first actions of V2.  The original edition of the 62 missal was a direct papal docuмent (i.e. an Apostolic Constitution, which referenced Quo Primum and asserted (correctly) that the 62 missal was in the spirit of Trent and part of the legal tree of Quo Primum).


    The addition of St Joseph was not part of Quo Primum, nor directly from the pope, but came from a V2 committee.

    RORATE CÆLI: 1962 Missal at 50 Saint Joseph is added to the Canon: the last major change to the Traditional Mass as we know it (rorate-caeli.blogspot.com)

    At the discussion of the schema on the liturgy at the first session of Vatican II, at least three bishops proposed that St. Joseph’s name be added to the Canon of the Mass. One of them was Bishop Peter Čule from Mostar, Yugoslavia, whose health had been seriously compromised by his having been sentenced to eleven years of hard labor in one of Tito’s show trials in 1948. 
    New Liturgical Movement: On the Insertion of St Joseph’s Name into the Roman Canon


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #16 on: January 25, 2024, 06:23:51 AM »
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  • It was added by the 'Sacred Congregation of Rites' as one of the first actions of V2.  The original edition of the 62 missal was a direct papal docuмent (i.e. an Apostolic Constitution, which referenced Quo Primum and asserted (correctly) that the 62 missal was in the spirit of Trent and part of the legal tree of Quo Primum).


    The addition of St Joseph was not part of Quo Primum, nor directly from the pope, but came from a V2 committee.

    RORATE CÆLI: 1962 Missal at 50 Saint Joseph is added to the Canon: the last major change to the Traditional Mass as we know it (rorate-caeli.blogspot.com)

    At the discussion of the schema on the liturgy at the first session of Vatican II, at least three bishops proposed that St. Joseph’s name be added to the Canon of the Mass. One of them was Bishop Peter Čule from Mostar, Yugoslavia, whose health had been seriously compromised by his having been sentenced to eleven years of hard labor in one of Tito’s show trials in 1948.
    New Liturgical Movement: On the Insertion of St Joseph’s Name into the Roman Canon

    Pax,


    Thank you for the links. 

    Is there a link to the Apostolic Constitution regarding the "original edition of the 62 missal"?

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #17 on: January 25, 2024, 06:46:28 AM »
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  • No one here is claiming (and definitely not me) that the sacred liturgy doesn't have divine elements- the form of the consecration, for example.

    My understanding is that the "divine elements" are those things that make the sacrament a valid sacrament (i.e.. the form).  Just as each sacrament has many other prayers said, they are not the critical words that make the sacrament valid, and those things can be changed by the pope. 
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #18 on: January 25, 2024, 06:55:17 AM »
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  • The Canon of the Mass is 967 words (I cut and pasted the '62 Missal and did a word count).  This being said, hypothetically speaking, Pius XII could have added St. Joseph to the Canon because, as we all must know, in non-essentials the pope has power over the Canon of the Mass.  I understand the argument, "But putting St. Joseph in the Canon opens the door of change..." I get it.  It would have been interesting had Pope Pius, instead of John, added St. Joseph to the Canon.
    Oftentimes this is what people think is the reason why others are against the post 1955 changes made by Pius XII.  However, the reasoning is not that they "opened the door of change", but that the changes became a problem over time and that Pius XII would not have approved of them if he knew what would have happened over time.  The Pian changes were not inherently evil.

    ETA: Just for clarification, I accept the Pian changes, but I understand why others use the pre-1955 rubrics.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #19 on: January 25, 2024, 07:12:50 AM »
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  • Nobody is directly asking:  What is the received liturgical tradition?

    So much of the focus here seems on centralised, administrative authority. What, however, has been the received tradition which may vary according to local received usage.

    St. Joseph's name was nowhere part of that tradition or usages.

    The questions to ask:  Why was the name of our Lord's putative father excluded from the Canon during its initial formation? Why did the name of St. Joseph continue to be excluded over the centuries?

    Once the answers to those questions have been obtained, then can one properly proceed to discussing the suitability, liceity, and morality of introducing the name into the Canon in the early 1960s.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #20 on: January 25, 2024, 07:14:40 AM »
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  • My understanding is that the "divine elements" are those things that make the sacrament a valid sacrament (i.e.. the form).  Just as each sacrament has many other prayers said, they are not the critical words that make the sacrament valid, and those things can be changed by the pope.

    That is my understanding as well. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #21 on: January 25, 2024, 07:26:31 AM »
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  • My understanding is that the "divine elements" are those things that make the sacrament a valid sacrament (i.e.. the form).  Just as each sacrament has many other prayers said, they are not the critical words that make the sacrament valid, and those things can be changed by the pope.

    I think that one could go a little farther as well, where it's the essence of the form that are divinely established, as you can find some (minor) variations from one Rite to another in the essential form itself with some of the Sacraments.

    There are some additional nuances in terms of validity.  Just because the essential words are uttered, it wouldn't necessarily make the Sacrament valid if the entire context is not Catholic.  So, for instance, if I had a blasphemous Satanic Black Mass, but inserted the words of consecration in the middle, it would not be valid because the entire intention of the Rite does not match what the Church intends to do.  That's what Pope Leo XIII taught about the Anglican Orders, where a non-Catholic context in the Rite can invalidate the Sacrament even if the essential form is not defective.  There's some blur with the Novus Ordo (it's not quite a Satanic Black Mass), but the principle is very solid, even if one could argue about its application to concrete cases.

    Now, just because something wasn't divinely established, the Catholic thinking is that the Holy Spirit has guided the Liturgy over the centuries and so in a sense, indirectly, what we have now is divinely established (in that regard), but it also does not preclude some minor changes here and there because, after all, that's how the Holy Spirit guided the Liturgy to the point where it's at now.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #22 on: January 25, 2024, 09:22:49 AM »
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  • It is apparent that several of the pontiffs between the peace of Constantine 325 and Pope Gregory 600 made additions to the Canon.  It is my understanding that the Canon was relatively fixed by the year 600.  Christ obviously did not mention Cosmas and Damian, et alia, when the first Mass was offered.  I am sure it was the custom of certain localities to add or omit certain prayers in the Canon.  

    Playing the devil's advocate, it took the Church 1800+ years to define the Immaculate Conception, and the act was done by papal fiat.  Pius IX consulted the opinion of the bishops, "Is this part of the deposit of Faith?," but in the end he did it of his own free will, exercising personal, extraordinary infallibility.  One could argue that Pope John did a similar thing with the Canon.  It seems to me the argument of St. Joseph being added to the Canon seems to revolve around the question, was John a pope or not, rather than the question, does the pope have authority to touch the Canon.   
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #23 on: January 25, 2024, 10:50:52 AM »
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  • It seems to me the argument of St. Joseph being added to the Canon seems to revolve around the question, was John a pope or not, rather than the question, does the pope have authority to touch the Canon. 

    I believe that's why the OP phrases it hypothetically as being done by a Pius XII, to take the Antipapacy of Roncalli off the table.

    I hold that a legitimate Pope does have the authority to touch the Canon, with whether he should or not being a different matter altogether. 

    That where we get back to Elwin's question.  Why hasn't St. Joseph been added?  Perhaps Elwin could shed some insight, but I suspect that it's due to the fact 1) St. Joseph died under the Old Covenant and/or 2) most (all?) of the saints mentioned in the Canon were martyrs, and thus the mention of them is tied to the practice of having martyrs' relics at the altar (now in altar stones).  Our Lady is generally considered a martyr.  I haven't studied all the names there, so there could be other exceptions to #2.  St. John was not technically a martyr, but his presence at the Cross was construed as the equivalent thereof.  By the same token, however, "all thy saints" is at the very end, without any explicit mention of martyrdom.  So this seems to lead to #1 being the reason St. Joseph wasn't included, but I don't see any compelling theological reason why he couldn't be, given that he's also among "all thy saints".

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #24 on: January 25, 2024, 06:41:59 PM »
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  • It is apparent that several of the pontiffs between the peace of Constantine 325 and Pope Gregory 600 made additions to the Canon.  It is my understanding that the Canon was relatively fixed by the year 600.  Christ obviously did not mention Cosmas and Damian, et alia, when the first Mass was offered.  I am sure it was the custom of certain localities to add or omit certain prayers in the Canon. 

    Playing the devil's advocate, it took the Church 1800+ years to define the Immaculate Conception, and the act was done by papal fiat.  Pius IX consulted the opinion of the bishops, "Is this part of the deposit of Faith?," but in the end he did it of his own free will, exercising personal, extraordinary infallibility.  One could argue that Pope John did a similar thing with the Canon.  It seems to me the argument of St. Joseph being added to the Canon seems to revolve around the question, was John a pope or not, rather than the question, does the pope have authority to touch the Canon. 
    Dear OABrownson1876,

    So far in this thread, no one has been able to cite one docuмent from the Church, or from a pope that stated that a pope can change the Canon in any way. Nor did you define what the Canon is, or provide any other requested information. You are rushing to conclusions. Why?

    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #25 on: January 26, 2024, 12:34:17 PM »
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  • There's a lot of murkiness around the changes to the liturgy in the 60s, or late 50s. I've read the claim (of course, without source provided) that the "for all" was being introduced into the Mass even before the Novus Ordo.

    Anyone know of a good study about the changes that were made to the liturgy before the Novus Ordo? I believe there were several official - Vatican approved - changes in the Latin Mass throughout the 60s. And then there was all kinds of nonsense going on with the bishops in various countries, such as my own USA, making changes.

    The whole period is a mess, and apparently there's no good record of it. Or is there? Again, anyone know of a good study on this?
    This text is from Tradition in Action site. There is a sentence in there about the laity having an equal status with the priest.
    So,   St Joseph, simple man, not a martyr, added to the Canon.  I wonder if that addition was a pre-precursor to facilitate this radical alteration of the role of the laity ...just a long shot thought. 

    SSPX 1962 Missal has a short commentary about this..., page 887. "St Joseph is invoked as the patron of the universal Church. "
    Fr. BEAUDOUIN was a bad actor. 

    ...The time – was that it would be used to justify the destruction of centuries of Catholic liturgy and the creation of a radically new Mass in which the “People of God” are regarded as the celebrants on an equal footing with the priests.


    The role of Dom Lambert Beauduin

    After the fateful and entirely inappropriate expression “active participation” appeared out of the blue in 1903, it got a muted reception. Few people – unless they had a goal to score – knew what to make of it or what to do with it.

    The first person to pick up the ball and run with it was the Benedictine monk, Dom Lambert Beauduin (1873-1960) of the Monastery of Mont César in Belgium. His goal was both ecuмenical and secular: to promote the “universal priesthood of all believers” through “participatory” liturgy and unite them in a common programme of social reform and pan-Christian “unity.”

    It was not for nothing that Beauduin is regarded as the founder of the New Liturgical Movement and a prophet of the “pastoral” Vatican II. He actually anticipated by half a century the most important progressivist advances of Vatican II in the key areas of liturgy, ecuмenism and ecclesiology.

    The barbarian in the citadel

    From the beginning of his clerical career, Beauduin revealed a deep alienation from the values and spirituality of traditional Catholicism. He pursued a campaign of increasing hostility against Catholic devotions. Even in his seminary days, he rebelled against the regime of spirituality and the necessity to follow the strict rubrics of the Mass. (1)

    Lambert BeauduinBeauduin, today recognized as the founder of the New Liturgical Reform
    It is unsurprising that he showed no interest in the Missal: it was, for him, “a closed and sealed book” (un livre fermé et scellé). He considered the liturgical books in general to be no more than “mumbo jumbo, incantations and magical formulae” (des grimoires). He also admitted that he had never recited his Breviary with the least devotion or interest. (2)

    It is clear that, as a priest, Beauduin had not received – because he rejected – a proper Catholic formation. Instead, he spent his days in the seminary at Liège under the tutelage of the Professor of Moral Theology, Fr. Antoine Pottier, who, as the local leader of the Christian Democrat Movement, was a political firebrand, kindling workers’ demonstrations and strikes.
    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #26 on: January 26, 2024, 01:26:25 PM »
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  • Dear OABrownson1876,

    So far in this thread, no one has been able to cite one docuмent from the Church, or from a pope that stated that a pope can change the Canon in any way. Nor did you define what the Canon is, or provide any other requested information. You are rushing to conclusions. Why?

    Do you think that the Latin Rite Canon was dropped from Heaven and handed to St. Peter ... before some of the saints mentioned in the Canon were even born?  Of course Popes can and have changed the Canon.  Trent teaches (as cited) that the Pope has the authority to change the Rites of the Church, and there was no exclusion made for the Canon.  Can you provide docuмentation saying that the Pope cannot change the Canon?  And before you try to cite Quo Primum, except for matters of divine law and dogma, a Pope cannot bind another pope.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #27 on: January 26, 2024, 03:24:09 PM »
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  • Dear OABrownson1876,

    So far in this thread, no one has been able to cite one docuмent from the Church, or from a pope that stated that a pope can change the Canon in any way. Nor did you define what the Canon is, or provide any other requested information. You are rushing to conclusions. Why?
    Texana, The Canon begins at the first ringing of the bells at the Sanctus, and if you open your missal, '55, '62, the pages should read "Canon of the Mass."  The first prayer is the Communicantes, ending with the Per ipsum...The Canon of the Mass has undergone a growth from the first Mass on Holy Thursday, to the present form, whether the priest includes St. Joseph or not.  

    Obviously the Novus Ordo has butchered the Canon beyond recognition, but the argument among some traditionalists is whether to include St. Joseph in the Canon or not when it comes to the Latin Mass.  So far I have not concluded anything, other than the fact alluded to by Lad, that I lean toward John XXIII being a valid pope, hence St. Joseph in the Canon is acceptable.  But I do not criticize priests and faithful who insist on Mass without St. Joseph in the Canon.   
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #28 on: January 26, 2024, 04:35:09 PM »
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  • If one looks at the DIFFERING versions of the Canon that appear in early manuscripts, varying on location. Persons other than the Roman Pontiff were responsible for these variations.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #29 on: January 26, 2024, 05:17:29 PM »
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  • Do you think that the Latin Rite Canon was dropped from Heaven and handed to St. Peter ... before some of the saints mentioned in the Canon were even born?  Of course Popes can and have changed the Canon.  Trent teaches (as cited) that the Pope has the authority to change the Rites of the Church, and there was no exclusion made for the Canon.  Can you provide docuмentation saying that the Pope cannot change the Canon?  And before you try to cite Quo Primum, except for matters of divine law and dogma, a Pope cannot bind another pope.

    Council of Trent, Session XXII
    http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch22.htm

    Quote
    CHAPTER IV 

    On the Canon of the Mass. And whereas it beseemeth, that holy things be administered in a holy manner, and of all holy things this sacrifice is the most holy; to the end that it might be worthily and reverently offered and received, the Catholic Church instituted, many years ago, the sacred Canon, so pure from every error, that nothing is contained therein which does not in the highest degree savour of a certain holiness and piety, and raise up unto God the minds of those that offer. For it is composed, out of the very words of the Lord, the traditions of the apostles, and the pious institutions also of holy pontiffs.

    ...

    CANON VI.--If any one saith, that the canon of the mass contains errors, and is therefore to be abrogated; let him be anathema.

    One must understand, the Latin word "canon" literally means "measuring line or rod." To add something to a "measuring rod" will change the measuring standard itself. So an addition or a subtraction or any change will automatically "abrogate" the previous standard of the "measuring rod."

    Trent says that cannot be done.