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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

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Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 62641 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

  • Supporter
Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« on: January 24, 2024, 11:15:00 AM »
The Canon of the Mass is 967 words (I cut and pasted the '62 Missal and did a word count).  This being said, hypothetically speaking, Pius XII could have added St. Joseph to the Canon because, as we all must know, in non-essentials the pope has power over the Canon of the Mass.  I understand the argument, "But putting St. Joseph in the Canon opens the door of change..."  I get it.  It would have been interesting had Pope Pius, instead of John, added St. Joseph to the Canon. 
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Offline Texana

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2024, 11:42:09 AM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on January 24, 2024, 11:15:00 AM
The Canon of the Mass is 967 words (I cut and pasted the '62 Missal and did a word count).  This being said, hypothetically speaking, Pius XII could have added St. Joseph to the Canon because, as we all must know, in non-essentials the pope has power over the Canon of the Mass.  I understand the argument, "But putting St. Joseph in the Canon opens the door of change..."  I get it.  It would have been interesting had Pope Pius, instead of John, added St. Joseph to the Canon.
Dear OABrownson1876,

Please cite any docuмent by a pope or a council stating that "in non essentials the pope has power over the Canon of the Mass."  What is the Canon of the Mass and which part is non essential to what? 
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2024, 01:40:27 PM »
Personally, I see nothing wrong with adding St. Joseph, if it were up to me, I'd say it's a good thing, but Quo Primum is pretty insistent about not adding and not omitting anything.

Quo Primum states:
Quote
All other of the churches referred to above, however, are hereby denied the use of other missals, which are to
be discontinued entirely and absolutely; whereas, by this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever, We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure.
I could be wrong, but it says that this does *not* apply *only* to those Churches with "the practice of saying Mass differently was given at the very time of the institution and confirmation of the church by Apostolic See at least 200 years ago..."

All that being said, the penalty for adding St. Joseph is "Our displeasure?" Not sure I fully understand that.
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Offline Texana

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2024, 02:16:54 PM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on January 24, 2024, 11:15:00 AM
The Canon of the Mass is 967 words (I cut and pasted the '62 Missal and did a word count).  This being said, hypothetically speaking, Pius XII could have added St. Joseph to the Canon because, as we all must know, in non-essentials the pope has power over the Canon of the Mass.  I understand the argument, "But putting St. Joseph in the Canon opens the door of change..."  I get it.  It would have been interesting had Pope Pius, instead of John, added St. Joseph to the Canon.
Dear OABrownson1876,

We do not all know what you know.  Please share with us the following:

1).  Cite all the docuмents you can find which allow a pope to change the Canon of the Mass.

2).  Define what "liturgy" is, and list all the liturgical books of the Church.

3).  Define what the "Canon of the Mass" is, including where it starts and ends.

4).  Cite all the docuмents of the Church that do not allow a pope to change the Canon of the Mass.

Thank you.
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2024, 03:07:10 PM »
I would argue that the Canon of the Mass is essential, and part of Tradition, being fixed by Pope St Gregory the Great in the 4th century.  Also, it was further codified by Quo Primum and Pope St Pius V.  To add St Joseph would be contrary to 1,600 years of history (and maybe longer).  It's unnecessary.

For John XXIII to have legally added St Joseph, he would've had to have revised Quo Primum, which we know he didn't.  A papal committee in 1962 does not have the power to overrule an Apostolic Constitution (and arguably, Catholic Tradition), of Quo Primum.
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