Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Desmond on January 28, 2016, 05:55:04 PM
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Hello, as you may know my understanding of whole areas of Catholic teaching is quite poor, in particular the Old Testament (among many!).
It is my understanding, both from the reading of Scripture directly, and exchanges with other self-identifying Catholics in the past, that while the Mosaic Covenant has undoubtedly been superseded by the New;
the Noahide Covenant detailed in Genesis 9 is not, and is everlasting until the End of Days, or, as the Bible itself says Gen.9:12: for perpetual generations
.
The Covenant seems also stipulated between not only God and all Mankind (Noah and his family at that point, and all their future descendants), but also all animals, Gen.9:12: "all the living souls that is with you"
and the whole of the earth Gen.9:13
.
Now, in Genesis 9:3-4 it is said:
And every thing that moveth and liveth shall be meat for you: even as the green herbs have I delivered them all to you:
Saving that flesh with blood you shall not eat.
Doesn't this mean, at the very least, and in the most liberal interpretation as possible, that blood-based foods are still prohibited?
A more strict reading would have the verse mandate bloodless meats, such as it is the custom in the Mosaic Law, or the Mahometan's Quran.
So I was wondering:
1)what is the common understanding on the Noahide Covenant's current status?
2) what had been the historical practice of the Church in relation of those verses, as I don't see how such a practice of, minimally, eating actual blood from animals, could have ever been permitted or tolerated?
Thanks in advance,
Desmond
Note: all quotes come from the 1899 Douay-Rheims American Version
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Still looking for an answer on this.
In fact, I'm also starting to think most Old Testament precepts are still valid to this day.
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Why don't you do the research yourself? It sounds like you have a lot of catching up to do with studying the Catholic Faith and what it teaches.
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Why don't you do the research yourself? It sounds like you have a lot of catching up to do with studying the Catholic Faith and what it teaches.
What an helpful and enlightening comment, Maximus.
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The Haydock for Gen 9:4 says The apostles required this law to be observed by the first Christians, that the Jews might not be disgusted: but, after a competent time had been allowed them, the Church thought proper to alter this discipline. (St. Augustine, contra Faust. xxxii. 13.)
Leviticus (http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id430.html) Ch. 11:2 Say to the children of Israel:* These are the animals which you are to eat of all the living things of the earth. .......
It looks like after a time in the Old Testament, God permitted meat eating.
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I think this is an interesting exercise.
First, I believe you must find out what the Jews made of this. Was the prohibition lifted at some point? If so, when?
So I looked it up.
The following is from a book by Rabbi Yoel Schwartz titled The Noahide Commandments
The people of the nations are not limited in the food they are allowed to eat, except the eating of living flesh or the flesh and blood of a human being.
There are also those authorities who are of the opinion that a Noahide should not eat the flesh of a dead animal unless killed for the specific purpose of eating its flesh.
These are the main points to the Jєωιѕн law (Halachah): This ritual law requires that the animal be slaughtered by severing the trachea and carotid artery in one stroke. This causes the least possible suffering to the animal. The animal must be totally dead with all muscular and nerve flexing abated before one would be permitted to eat it. The lungs must be checked to determine that the animal was not afflicted with certain illnesses that would cause fatality according to the guidelines of the Jєωιѕн law. Animals for eating
The people of other nations are allowed to eat all kinds of animals. Though there is a difference even for non-Jews between kosher and not kosher species, this is mainly regarding the sacrificial ritual and not for eating purposes.
[Why is it permitted for Noahides to eat any kind of animal whereas all animals were prohibited to Adam?
It is written (Bereshit 9:3), “Every living thing that moves upon the earth shall be (as) food for you.” Every living thing that moves includes cattle, beasts, birds, and even the fish of the sea. All of these are called “living things that move” (Ramban).
Meat, which was prohibited to Adam, was permitted to Noah because (a) it was because of him and for his needs that G-d spared the animals; were it not for man they would not have been spared (cf. 6:7); (b) he toiled over them and attended to their needs in the ark. Of him it is said (Psalms 128:2): “You shall eat from the toil of your hands.” He had thus acquired rights over them (Or HaChayim).
“They were saved in an ark which you toiled to build; i.e. their salvation came through you; they are therefore yours to do with as you please like the green herbs of the field” (Bechor Shor; Chizkuni).
“As the green herbage I have given you everything.” Though I permitted only herbage, but not flesh, to Adam, I give you the same right to everything that he had for herbage” (Rashi). R’ Bachya and Chizkuni comment that the comparison to green herbage is noteworthy: Lest one think that everything was permitted, G-d qualified His permission by comparing it to herbage.
Just as some herbs are beneficial to man while others are unfit for food and even poisonous, so among the animals and birds there are those that are permitted by the Torah and those that are prohibited (see comm. of Chavel to his ed. of R’ Bachya).
This explains why, in spite of the general permission which was granted to Noah to consume meat, it is important that the Noahide not eat meat taken from a living animal, and the Jew eat only certain species slaughtered according to the Jєωιѕн law.
Malbim explains that it is logical and desirable for a lower form of life to be eaten and absorbed into a higher form. Therefore, animals eat plant life, thus elevating it, and humans eat animals, elevating them to become part of intelligent man. (O that man would be intelligent!)]
Flesh from the living It is prohibited to eat meat that has been cut or torn off from a living creature, even from a dead animal, if the flesh was cut off when the animal was still alive or when it was on the verge of dying and not slaughtered according to Jєωιѕн law. If it was slaughtered by cutting it’s neck and not slaughtered by a Jew according to Jєωιѕн law, many of its’ parts are considered to have been cut from a living animal and are therefore forbidden. This refers to all parts that are attached to the trachea and the esophagus and includes the lungs, liver, stomach, and intestines.
There are various methods used for killing the animals that are intended for human consumption. Some of them present no problem but others would call into question the permissibility of eating the above-mentioned organs. One should therefore either not eat those organs, verify that the method which was used to kill the animal was not by cutting its neck or, (and this is the most practical suggestion) only purchase the meat of such organs if it has been slaughtered by a Jew according to Jєωιѕн law-i.e. that is certified as kosher.
Nearly all the meat for human consumption today comes from animals that have been killed for eating. However some slaughterhouses detach parts of the body before the animal has stopped flexing its limbs. If a Noahide is not sure about the source of the meat, it is advised that he buy the meat from a person whom he can trust such as a fellow Noahide. In order to remove all doubt, it is possible to buy kosher meat with a kosher label from a recognized Rabbinical organization.
These rules of flesh from the living hold only toward animals and birds that have warm blood.
It does not hold toward reptiles, creeping creatures and fish Flesh from the living is mixed with other meat It is prohibited to eat meat that has been mixed with flesh from the living, whether it was done on purpose or not, even if cooked, broiled or added to a soup or any other type of drink.[1]
According to the Jews themselves the eating of meat was permitted after Noah.
So the early Christians being themselves Jews and Gentiles were not forbidden to eat meat entirely, just certain types of meat. The question would be then, when were those restrictions lifted?
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So I was wondering:
...
2) what had been the historical practice of the Church in relation of those verses, as I don't see how such a practice of, minimally, eating actual blood from animals, could have ever been permitted or tolerated?
Does this help:
Acts 11:
Peter defends his having received the Gentiles into the church.
[1] And the apostles and brethren, who were in Judea, heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. [2] And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circuмcision contended with him, [3] Saying: Why didst thou go in to men uncircuмcised, and didst eat with them? [4] But Peter began and declared to them the matter in order, saying: [5] I was in the city of Joppe praying, and I saw in an ecstasy of mind a vision, a certain vessel descending, as it were a great sheet let down from heaven by four corners, and it came even unto me.
[6] Into which looking, I considered, and saw fourfooted creatures of the earth, and beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air: [7] And I heard also a voice saying to me: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. [8] And I said: Not so, Lord; for nothing common or unclean hath ever entered into my mouth. [9] And the voice answered again from heaven: What God hath made clean, do not thou call common. [10] And this was done three times: and all were taken up again into heaven.
[11] And behold, immediately there were three men come to the house wherein I was, sent to me from Caesarea. [12] And the Spirit said to me, that I should go with them, nothing doubting. And these six brethren went with me also: and we entered into the man' s house. [13] And he told us how he had seen an angel in his house, standing, and saying to him: Send to Joppe, and call hither Simon, who is surnamed Peter, [14] Who shall speak to thee words, whereby thou shalt be saved, and all thy house. [15] And when I had begun to speak, the Holy Ghost fell upon them, as upon us also in the beginning.
[16] And I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said: John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. [17] If then God gave them the same grace, as to us also who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ; who was I, that could withstand God? [18] Having heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying: God then hath also to the Gentiles given repentance unto life.
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I appreciate all the answers, truly and not sarcastically this time, however:
all those deal with the Mosaic Covenant, which we all know to be superseded/fulfilled by Christ.
What I was mentioning, is the Noahide Covenant, irrevokable per God's own Word and everlasting, valid for all humanity and Creation till the End of Times.
Just as Gen 9:7: But increase you and multiply, and go upon the earth, and fill it.
or
Gen 9: 16:
And the bow shall be in the clouds, and I shall see it, and shall remember the everlasting covenant, that was made between God and every living soul of all flesh which is upon the earth.
9:17And God said to Noe: This shall be the sign of the covenant which I have established between me and all flesh upon the earth.
... is still valid and forever more, Gen 9:3-4 should (hypothetical) be too, as God Himself said so and is unchanging.
It is Catholic Doctrine that the Noahide Covenant is still valid, and it is my personal opinion that nobody, not even the Church or the Apostles, can change/reform it in any way.
The Commandment does not deal with unclean meat or meat per se, or any other provision from the Mosaic Covenant by the way but simply meat with blood .
The Vulgate reads: "excepto quod carnem cuм sanguine non comedetis"
which seems pretty straightforward to me.
Ps:CathMomof7, I'm not sure we should trust what jew rabbis say about anything, especially the OT, as the тαℓмυdists made up all sorts of false and twisted things over the centuries.
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I know the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH is not the most reliable reference but for what it is worth:
PART ONE -
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
CHAPTER TWO - GOD COMES TO MEET MAN
ARTICLE I - THE REVELATION OF GOD
.........
II. THE STAGES OF REVELATION
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The covenant with Noah
56 After the unity of the human race was shattered by sin God at once sought to save humanity part by part. The covenant with Noah after the flood gives expression to the principle of the divine economy toward the "nations", in other words, towards men grouped "in their lands, each with [its] own language, by their families, in their nations".[9]
57 This state of division into many nations, each entrusted by divine providence to the guardianship of angels, is at once cosmic, social and religious. It is intended to limit the pride of fallen humanity[10] united only in its perverse ambition to forge its own unity as at Babel.[11] But, because of sin, both polytheism and the idolatry of the nation and of its rulers constantly threaten this provisional economy with the perversion of paganism.[12]
58 The covenant with Noah remains in force during the times of the Gentiles, until the universal proclamation of the Gospel.[13] The Bible venerates several great figures among the Gentiles: Abel the just, the king-priest Melchisedek - a figure of Christ - and the upright "Noah, Daniel, and Job".[14] Scripture thus expresses the heights of sanctity that can be reached by those who live according to the covenant of Noah, waiting for Christ to "gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad".[15]
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/profess2.html
Although this says universal proclamation of the Gospel, I think it is implicit that, if you've heard the Gospel then Noahic covenant is of no more use to you.
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Hello, as you may know my understanding of whole areas of Catholic teaching is quite poor, in particular the Old Testament (among many!).
It is my understanding, both from the reading of Scripture directly, and exchanges with other self-identifying Catholics in the past, that while the Mosaic Covenant has undoubtedly been superseded by the New;
the Noahide Covenant detailed in Genesis 9 is not, and is everlasting until the End of Days, or, as the Bible itself says Gen.9:12: for perpetual generations
.
The Covenant seems also stipulated between not only God and all Mankind (Noah and his family at that point, and all their future descendants), but also all animals, Gen.9:12: "all the living souls that is with you"
and the whole of the earth Gen.9:13
.
Now, in Genesis 9:3-4 it is said:
And every thing that moveth and liveth shall be meat for you: even as the green herbs have I delivered them all to you:
Saving that flesh with blood you shall not eat.
Doesn't this mean, at the very least, and in the most liberal interpretation as possible, that blood-based foods are still prohibited?
A more strict reading would have the verse mandate bloodless meats, such as it is the custom in the Mosaic Law, or the Mahometan's Quran.
So I was wondering:
1)what is the common understanding on the Noahide Covenant's current status?
2) what had been the historical practice of the Church in relation of those verses, as I don't see how such a practice of, minimally, eating actual blood from animals, could have ever been permitted or tolerated?
Thanks in advance,
Desmond
Note: all quotes come from the 1899 Douay-Rheims American Version
Does this mean that the Eucharistic is not Real Food, and thus not really the Body and Blood of Our Lord?
If we are still not permitted to eat the blood of animals, then does this mean we are forbidden the Eucharist or that the Eucharist is merely a symbol and not the Real Body and Blood?
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Does this mean that the Eucharistic is not Real Food, and thus not really the Body and Blood of Our Lord?
If we are still not permitted to eat the blood of animals, then does this mean we are forbidden the Eucharist or that the Eucharist is merely a symbol and not the Real Body and Blood?
I don't understand. Man is not an animal. And Christ is not a mere Man, but also Divine.
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I think the entire Noahide concept was invented to sway unintelligent or weak Christians and others (those who are dull in mind but seeking God) away from Our Lord and into following foolishness.
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Maybe it's that God will not destroy us by water and the rainbow that is everlasting? I doubt that we're not allowed to meat.
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Maybe it's that God will not destroy us by water and the rainbow that is everlasting? I doubt that we're not allowed to meat.
It's not a prohibition of meat consumption!
It's a prohibition about bloody meat / animal blood consumption.
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I think the entire Noahide concept was invented to sway unintelligent or weak Christians and others (those who are dull in mind but seeking God) away from Our Lord and into following foolishness.
Capt, what are you saying? That Genesis is allegorical/forged?
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Desmond, this has naught to do with Genesis: Check out
Jєωιѕнvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html
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Desmond, this has naught to do with Genesis: Check out
Jєωιѕнvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Seven_Noahide_Laws.html
Oh, I thought he might have meant the 7 Noahide Laws.
Thank you Nadir, as usual.
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I think the entire Noahide concept was invented to sway unintelligent or weak Christians and others (those who are dull in mind but seeking God) away from Our Lord and into following foolishness.
Capt, what are you saying? That Genesis is allegorical/forged?
No, I am saying that the Noachide covenant, as pushed today, is a fraud.
Clearly, Noah played his role. He had a job to do. The Jews, who want us to follow Noah, openly disparage him as a drunkard and the Torah itself refers to him as a man of the Earth, which means he is not particularly spiritual. His role was to save his family and keep the human linage alive. Nothing more, nothing less.
The Noachide lineage lead to the Fathers in the Torah. The Torah was only put in place to prepare a place in this fallen world for Our Lord.
For us to reach back, at the behest of deniers of Christ, and follow Noachide rules is an act of supreme foolishness. It would be denying Christ.