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Author Topic: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)  (Read 6742 times)

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Offline Matto

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Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2021, 03:06:13 PM »
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  • No argument here.  Evolution is the match that starts the atheistic, communistic Fire.  But my point is that in the early 1900s the Church/society was already on fire with ƈσmmυɳιsm.  You have to put the fire out (ƈσmmυɳιsm); you can’t go back and worry about “safety with matches” (ie evolution).
    I heard this story from one of the trad priests. I forget which one. In ƈhıną when the Communists put the Christians in the re-education camps. They did not preach atheism. They preached evolution. And those who accepted evolution were allowed to go home, while those who refused to believe in evolution and believed in creationism were killed. The Commies know that once you believe in evolution, the devil's got you.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #31 on: May 26, 2021, 09:53:21 PM »
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  • As I expected, anyone who disagrees with you gets dismissed as "modernist".

    You still have not demonstrated that the Church requires the belief.
    .
    The Church requires belief in every word of Scripture, and Scripture says the flood was universal about seven or eight different times, as I quoted on the previous page.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #32 on: May 26, 2021, 10:04:13 PM »
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  • I heard this story from one of the trad priests. I forget which one. In ƈhıną when the Communists put the Christians in the re-education camps. They did not preach atheism. They preached evolution. And those who accepted evolution were allowed to go home, while those who refused to believe in evolution and believed in creationism were killed. The Commies know that once you believe in evolution, the devil's got you.

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #33 on: May 26, 2021, 10:48:56 PM »
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  • I heard this story from one of the trad priests. I forget which one. In ƈhıną when the Communists put the Christians in the re-education camps. They did not preach atheism. They preached evolution. And those who accepted evolution were allowed to go home, while those who refused to believe in evolution and believed in creationism were killed. The Commies know that once you believe in evolution, the devil's got you.
    This sounds like a little book written by a missionary bishop in ƈhıną. Very useful and inspiring book which explains evolution as a direct cause of the adoption of ƈσmmυɳιsm. I will try to find title and bishop’s name.

    Edit:
    Here it is
    The Surrender to Secularism - Bishop Cuthbert O'Gara, Bishop of Yuanling, published by Mindszenty Foundation (1967)  
    http://store.casamaria.org/the-surrender-to-secularism/


    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #34 on: May 27, 2021, 03:14:02 AM »
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  • The theory of a local flood usually stems from modernists who are eager to curry favor with modern atheist pseudo-science.

    Most things were already said in this thread. The church teaches global flood, there's scientific evidence of a global flood (fossils on the highest mountains of earth, fossil records of plants and animals everywhere that had a sudden death by mudflow, not a slow death by climate changes or similar). But I also want to directly quote the Bible on this:

    Genesis 6:17
    Quote
    And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

    Genesis 7:19
    Quote
    And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

    Genesis 8:9
    Quote
    But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

    Unless taught otherwise by the holy magisterium, the Bible has to be taken literally (the inspired writers could not err), and there really isn't much room for interpretation here. And beyond that, as Noah's Ark has been found on Mount Ararat in Turkey, we can believe this report from Genesis to be true as well :laugh1:


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #35 on: May 27, 2021, 04:55:24 AM »
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  • As I expected, anyone who disagrees with you gets dismissed as "modernist".

    You still have not demonstrated that the Church requires the belief.
    You don't believe that the Church requires belief in the inerrancy of the Bible?  Do you believe in the inerrancy of the Bible?

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #36 on: May 27, 2021, 05:49:25 AM »
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  • You don't believe that the Church requires belief in the inerrancy of the Bible?  Do you believe in the inerrancy of the Bible?
    Per the title of the thread, this discussion specifically concerns the belief that the flood was geographically universal.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #37 on: May 27, 2021, 07:01:00 AM »
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  • The universal flood seems to me to lend credence to Flat Earth theory as does the firmament.
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #38 on: May 27, 2021, 07:14:47 AM »
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  • Pope Benedict XV’s Spiritus Paraclitus says:

    ‘Yet no one can pretend that certain recent writers really adhere to these limitations. For while conceding that inspiration extends to every phrase -- and, indeed, to every single word of Scripture -- yet, by endeavouring to distinguish between what they style the primary or religious and the secondary or profane element in the Bible, they claim that the effect of inspiration -- namely, absolute truth and immunity from error -- are to be restricted to that primary or religious element. Their notion is that only what concerns religion is intended and taught by God in Scripture, and that all the rest -- things concerning “profane knowledge,” the garments in which Divine truth is presented -- God merely permits, and even leaves to the individual author’s greater or less knowledge. Small wonder, then, that in their view a considerable number of things occur in the Bible touching physical science, history and the like, which cannot be reconciled with modern progress in science. Some even maintain that these views do not conflict with what our predecessor laid down since -- so they claim -- he said that the sacred writers spoke in accordance with the external -- and thus deceptive -- appearance of things in nature. But the Pontiff's own words show that this is a rash and false deduction. For sound philosophy teaches that the senses can never be deceived as regards their own proper and immediate object. Therefore, from the merely external appearance of things -- of which, of course, we have always to take account as Leo XIII, following in the footsteps of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, most wisely remarks --we can never conclude that there is any error in Sacred Scripture….’

    Here the Pope confirms that the inspired writers of Holy Scripture had to know the true order of the universe. It also teaches that anything they wrote had to be the ‘unerring truth.’ Does this then not teach that the language they used had to be the truth, given it was the only Biblical understanding of all the Fathers?

    Pope Benedict XV continues:

    ‘But although these words of our predecessor Pope Leo XIII leave no room for doubt or dispute, it grieves us to find that not only men outside, but even children of the Catholic Church -- nay, what is a peculiar sorrow to us, even clerics and professors of sacred learning -- who in their own conceit either openly repudiate or at least attack in secret the Church’s teaching on this point….’-- Spiritus Paraclitus.


    Here then, in these all-embracing paragraphs, Pope Benedict XV blows apart every reason given by the Galilean churchmen since 1741 to allow a contrary interpretation of the literal moving-sun revelations in Scripture. Where now the often quoted ‘the Bible is given to teach us, not how the heavens go, but how men go to heaven,’

    Offline Dankward

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #39 on: May 27, 2021, 09:05:17 AM »
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  • The universal flood seems to me to lend credence to Flat Earth theory as does the firmament.
    It's a bit dangerous to bring flat earth into this thread, but here goes :popcorn:.

    Why would it lend credence to FE? On a spherical earth, the water that encompassed (and still encompasses) the globe would still be pulled towards the center of gravity, if that's what you're referring to.

    Regarding the biblical firmament, here's an excellent article by Dr. Robert Sungenis showing that saying the firmament is a dome above a flat Earth is a misinterpretation of Genesis: https://www.robertsungenis.com/gww/features/Flat%20Earth%20Geography.pdf

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #40 on: May 27, 2021, 09:34:25 AM »
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  • It's a bit dangerous to bring flat earth into this thread, but here goes :popcorn:.

    Why would it lend credence to FE? On a spherical earth, the water that encompassed (and still encompasses) the globe would still be pulled towards the center of gravity, if that's what you're referring to.

    Regarding the biblical firmament, here's an excellent article by Dr. Robert Sungenis showing that saying the firmament is a dome above a flat Earth is a misinterpretation of Genesis: https://www.robertsungenis.com/gww/features/Flat%20Earth%20Geography.pdf
    Thanks.
    Oh so many questions about this, but I don't want to derail the thread.
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #41 on: May 27, 2021, 12:49:40 PM »
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  • Not to be overly simplistic, but is it a teaching of the magisterium of the Church, and if so, at what level of certainty, that there was a worldwide flood, of such magnitude that it killed everyone on the face of the earth aside from Noah and his family in the Ark?

    I wouldn't be so concerned with whether it covered, to the very top and then some, every square inch of land on the surface of the earth, or for that matter whether it killed every land animal not on the Ark (obviously fish would be an exception), as I would be about whether we are all descended from those eight people and no one else.

    IOW, how solemnly defined is the teaching?

    I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of "all men now living are descended from those eight", but I don't want to go to the cross defending this as dogma (or whatever), when the level of certainty might be somewhat lower than that.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #42 on: May 27, 2021, 12:58:15 PM »
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  • Not to be overly simplistic, but is it a teaching of the magisterium of the Church, and if so, at what level of certainty, that there was a worldwide flood, of such magnitude that it killed everyone on the face of the earth aside from Noah and his family in the Ark?

    It's unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers that the flood was worldwide.  CE's desperate attempt to disprove this by citing one or two Church Fathers who made an exception only for the Garden of Eden does not suffice to overturn this.  And the Catholic rule for interpretation of Scripture as always been that the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers is the Church's rule of interpretation.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #43 on: May 27, 2021, 01:07:12 PM »
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  • Not to be overly simplistic, but is it a teaching of the magisterium of the Church, and if so, at what level of certainty, that there was a worldwide flood, of such magnitude that it killed everyone on the face of the earth aside from Noah and his family in the Ark?

    I wouldn't be so concerned with whether it covered, to the very top and then some, every square inch of land on the surface of the earth, or for that matter whether it killed every land animal not on the Ark (obviously fish would be an exception), as I would be about whether we are all descended from those eight people and no one else.

    IOW, how solemnly defined is the teaching?

    I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of "all men now living are descended from those eight", but I don't want to go to the cross defending this as dogma (or whatever), when the level of certainty might be somewhat lower than that.
    Pope Pius IX: “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.”

    Pope Pius X (Catechism)
    27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
    A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

    St. Jerome:
    This [Church] is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.

    St. Bede the Venerable: “Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside.”

    Saint Robert Bellarmine: "…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church.”

    And on and on the comparison goes.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #44 on: May 27, 2021, 01:42:18 PM »
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  • It's unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers that the flood was worldwide.  CE's desperate attempt to disprove this by citing one or two Church Fathers who made an exception only for the Garden of Eden does not suffice to overturn this.  And the Catholic rule for interpretation of Scripture as always been that the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers is the Church's rule of interpretation.
    I see.  And I realize that the Church does not have an official concordance of sorts, like "one big encyclical" that says precisely what the Church's interpretation of each and every verse of Scripture means.  That would be falling into the Protestant trap of "proving the Faith from the Bible".  Haydock comes close, as do others, but taken by themselves, they are not the magisterium.

    Just for the heck of it, when I go to my other house today, I'm going to see what Ott says about this.  I have both PDF and dead tree copies of Ott, but the PDF is too unwieldy to wade through.  I don't doubt what you say, I'd just like to see which of the levels of certainty this falls into.  If it is de fide, then it's game over.