Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)  (Read 6730 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DigitalLogos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8304
  • Reputation: +4718/-754
  • Gender: Male
  • Slave to the Sacred Heart
    • Twitter
Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2021, 07:17:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have found that the whole "day" meaning a longer period of time argument is not honest because nobody really believes that. I have never met a single person who believed in the story of Genesis, with "day" meaning a long period of time. They all reject the story completely in favor of some version of the story given by popular science.
    One has to ask what Moses would have defined as a "day" when he was given the revelation. Common sense would dictate that a "day" to Moses is the same as what a "day" to modern man is: a 24-hour period. There is no reason for him to state "day" unless it actually meant "day" in the common meaning of the word.

    Recall that Scripture has absolutely no problem providing accurate genealogies and ages for those generations in Genesis, some of whom lived to be 800-900 years old. So, I don't understand why it would conversely provide an inaccurate meaning of "day" to be anything other than a 24-hour period.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Emile

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2470
    • Reputation: +1922/-136
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #76 on: May 27, 2021, 07:24:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You raise an interesting point Stan.
    The Church has learned to always ask Quo vadis? Which is why She is conservative in the sense of never allowing change for the sake of change. Modernism has made clear in our day the necessity of that approach. The reluctance to depart from the conventional literal meaning is because we know, or at least sense, that doing so can and will lead to serious error. Which is why it is right to demand a very substantial reason to alter anything, including our approach to Scripture.
    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago


    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6882
    • Reputation: +3852/-406
    • Gender: Male
    • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #77 on: May 27, 2021, 07:28:10 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • One has to ask what Moses would have defined as a "day" when he was given the revelation.
    Moses? Most of these people do not believe Moses wrote the five Books of Moses. They think they were written in various accounts by different scribes they call J and P and E and other names and compiled centuries later into the text we have today with the original sources being lost.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline DeathWears A BlueBeret

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 41
    • Reputation: +26/-52
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #78 on: May 27, 2021, 07:35:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Catholics living in the cities and suburbs don't really believe in the biblical teachings of Noah. That's why they still live in the cities and suburbs. 

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11527
    • Reputation: +6477/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #79 on: May 27, 2021, 07:56:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Day isn't 24 hours?  Again why is there a need to diminish what God can do? 

    Why only flood part of the Earth? Why should it take more than 6 actual days to create the universe?  Is He not capable of such wonders and instill such awe?



    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #80 on: May 27, 2021, 08:25:13 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Moses? Most of these people do not believe Moses wrote the five Books of Moses. They think they were written in various accounts by different scribes they call J and P and E and other names and compiled centuries later into the text we have today with the original sources being lost.
    Ah, yes. Forgive me, I was under the assumption that I was arguing with Catholics here. How dare I stand with what is traditionally believed about their authorship.  :jester:
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47195
    • Reputation: +27972/-5210
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #81 on: May 27, 2021, 08:41:39 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Day isn't 24 hours?  Again why is there a need to diminish what God can do?

    Why only flood part of the Earth? Why should it take more than 6 actual days to create the universe?  Is He not capable of such wonders and instill such awe?

    Right, the God who created all this from nothing suddenly can’t figure out a way to flood the entire earth?  I can think of half a dozen natural explanations, and of course we can’t limit God to these either.  He could make enough water out of nothing to flood the earth and then mop it up.  Apart from that, there are all kinds of theories like the water canopy, and scientists have recently discovered that there’s more water under the earth’s crust than in all the oceans combined ... which could explain the “fountains of the deep”.  There could have been a massive crustal displacement ... perhaps due to a comet strike ... that could have largely emptied the oceans into the land until they eventually receded.  Just because scientists are idiots doesn’t mean that God is limited by their stupidity.

    No, it’s nothing but lack of faith which is driving all this crap.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #82 on: May 27, 2021, 08:58:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Say what you will about the eco-friendly adaptation of Noah from 2014 (I actually kind of like the film), but, I think they nailed the flood scene. Note the fountains of the deep as well as the rain. As Ladislaus points out, both are extremely plausible, and likely, explanations for how the Flood occurred.

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4154
    • Reputation: +2435/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #83 on: May 27, 2021, 11:28:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have to do something to get points across. Go ahead and have a laugh - that's intentional - but you might consider holding back on your accusations of "clueless". Dogs in heaven or not is speculative theology, but there are arguments on various positions (there are at least 3 main positions).
    .
    Okay, you got me curious. What are the three positions about dogs in heaven, and what are the arguments for them? I've honestly never heard of such a thing.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11527
    • Reputation: +6477/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #84 on: May 28, 2021, 04:38:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    Okay, you got me curious. What are the three positions about dogs in heaven, and what are the arguments for them? I've honestly never heard of such a thing.
    Interestingly enough, anything I've found by googling this states Pius IX taught that animals were not in heaven, but the post Vatican II "popes" say otherwise! Certainly this isn't just a coincidence.

    Offline cassini

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3969
    • Reputation: +3203/-275
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #85 on: May 28, 2021, 07:31:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Let's try another one: is "day" in Genesis 24 hours or an indefinite period of time that may be long?

    Most here are probably aware the biblical commission allowed either view. So the Church does not require belief in either.

    If you were living before the biblical commission answered, would you have held that a "day" has to be "24 hours" and anything else is "modernism"? That is basically a rhetorical question. I'm not expecting a serious answer.

    I have met "traditional catholics" who rejected the biblical commission decision as "modernist" because "it's obvious from Scripture and Tradition" that a Genesis day is "24 hours". They simply reject a church decision under Pope St. Pius X because they - with no theology training or credentials - disagree with it. It boggles my mind and makes me wonder where their motive for faith lies.

    To understand why Catholics on a forum like CIF have to discuss why there seems to be no agreement about natural matters that appear in the Bible, one has to know when and how this 'modernism' entered the womb of the Church causing traditional understandings to be rejected by so many.

    When popes in 1820 were conned, yes, conned, into allowing passages like these

    His going out is from the end of heaven, and his circuit even to the end thereof: and there is no one that can hide from his heat.” --- (Ps. 18 (19):1, 6-7).

    Great is the Lord that made him [the sun], and at his words he hath hastened his course (Ecc. 43:2-4).

     to mean that the sun stood still, then we all should know where this modernism started. That is when the catechism of Trent got the 'scientific' boot out of the Church, teachings like this:

    ‘I Believe in God, Almighty Father, Creator of Heaven and Earth. He followed no external form or model; but contemplating, and as it were imitating, the universal model contained in the divine intelligence, the supreme Architect, with infinite wisdom and power – attributes peculiar to the Divinity – created all things in the beginning. He spoke and they were made… The words heaven and Earth include all things that the heavens and the Earth contain; for besides the heavens, which the Prophet has called the works of His fingers, He also gave to the sun its brilliancy, and to the moon and stars their beauty; and that they may be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years. He so ordered the celestial bodies in a certain and uniform course that nothing varies more than their continual revolution, while nothing is more fixed than their variety…. The Earth also God commanded to stand in the midst of the world, rooted in its own foundations [Psa. 103:5: You fixed the Earth upon its foundations, not to be moved forever], and made the mountains ascend, and the plains descend into the place that He had founded for them…. He next not only clothed and adorned it with trees and every variety of plants and flowers, but filled it, as He had already filled the air and water, with innumerable kinds of creatures…. Not only does God protect and govern all things by His Providence, but He also by an internal power impels to motion and action whatever moves and acts, and this in such a manner that, although He excludes not, He yet precedes the agency of secondary causes.’ Catechism of Trent.

    Now we all agree popes like Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius X were good popes, but they were caught up in the dominance of false-science that claimed long-age evolution. I have no doubt the Biblical Commission put out their 'period of time' for day ruling under pressure of these 'scientific' times. Histiory records that never in the history of the Church were so many souls lost to Catholicism than from the mid 1800s onwards.

    ‘Satan uniquely entered the Catholic Church at some point over the last century, or even before. For over a century, the organizers of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, Liberalism, and Modernism infiltrated the Catholic Church in order to change her doctrine, her liturgy, and her mission from something supernatural to something secular.’ (Taylor Marshall, October 4, 2019 (LifeSiteNews)
     
    ‘Naturalism is more than a heresy; it is pure undiluted anti-Christian. Heresy denies one or more dogmas; naturalism denies that there are any dogmas or that there can be any. Heresy alters more or less what God has revealed; naturalism denies the very existence of revelation. What hurls more people into hell nowadays that any other epoch, is rationalism or naturalism.

    (The kingship of Christ, Cardinal Pie of Poitiers.)

    And that is why today, even among Catholics on CIF we have different versions of God's creation.
     


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47195
    • Reputation: +27972/-5210
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #86 on: May 28, 2021, 10:31:41 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Say what you will about the eco-friendly adaptation of Noah from 2014 (I actually kind of like the film), but, I think they nailed the flood scene. Note the fountains of the deep as well as the rain. As Ladislaus points out, both are extremely plausible, and likely, explanations for how the Flood occurred.

    Another little detail in Genesis, that God closed the ark from the outside for Noah and his family.  Does Father Robinson believe that or was that just more fanciful story-telling by the Holy Spirit.  If of course it was the Holy Spirit who wrote Scripture, and that it wasn't just a scrapbook made up of various J, P, and E "sources".

    Scientists know nothing, and the scientific reasons against a worldwide flood given by Catholic Encyclopedia were lame and borderline laughable, and they all assume uniformitarianism.

    I've seen very credible theories, including from the Kolbe Institute, about how there was a massive tectonic upheaval that caused the whole thing from below.  And then there's the water canopy theory where the original atmosphere had a large canopy of water at the outer edges of the atmosphere that collapsed.  This water canopy also shielded the earth from radiation, so that's why people didn't live as long after the flood.  What if a huge asteroid or comet hit the earth in the ocean and blasted a tremendous amount of ocean water into the atmosphere.  There are probably a dozen plausible natural theories regarding a potential mechanism for the flood.

    These "scientists" have proven over and over again that they're a bunch of morons making things up, making up fairy tales, to promote their atheistic agenda.  And we need to bow to them?

    I wonder if Fr. Robinson believes that God actually parted the Red Sea or whether that was just a lucky low tide in a reed marsh ... like most of the Modernists believe.

    Oh, BTW, they've found tongs of Egyptian chariot parts at the bottom of the RED SEA ... sorry, Modernists.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47195
    • Reputation: +27972/-5210
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #87 on: May 28, 2021, 10:49:15 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here's a study that recently found that there is THREE TIMES MORE WATER in the mantle of the earth than the entire surface water combined (oceans, lakes, rivers, etc.).

    So Fr. Robinson, following CE, claims that the flood couldn't have happened because of the volume of water that would have been required.  Well, here you go.

    So the Sacred Scriptures may in fact have accurately spoken of the "fountains of the deep" opening up, eh, Father?  In fact that ridiculous CE article ignored that and ran some dumb calculation about the amount of rainfall it would take to cover the entire earth as Genesis indicates ... ignoring Scripture's description that there was water coming up from below as well.  Because ... that would have been unscientific ...

    How about now, CE?
    https://tinyurl.com/uu2hfrsd

    That author not only made an ass of himself but threw the Holy Spirit overboard or under the bus in doing so ... only to have made an idiot out of himself.

    Offline DeathWears A BlueBeret

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 41
    • Reputation: +26/-52
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #88 on: May 28, 2021, 12:05:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Interestingly enough, anything I've found by googling this states Pius IX taught that animals were not in heaven, but the post Vatican II "popes" say otherwise! Certainly this isn't just a coincidence.
    The bible says animals are in Heaven. 

    Isaias 11:6-10

    Apocalypse 5:13

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47195
    • Reputation: +27972/-5210
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Noah's Flood Was Not Worldwide (Catholic Encyclopedia)
    « Reply #89 on: May 28, 2021, 12:10:39 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The bible says animals are in Heaven.

    Isaias 11:6-10

    Apocalypse 5:13

    I believe the two can be reconciled.  Heaven proper refers to the beatific vision, and of course animals cannot enter heaven in that sense.  But when the new earth is restored after the Last Judgment, I would assume that might very well include some animals as well.  There's nothing preventing it ... though the animals of course would not experience the beatific vision.