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Author Topic: Ngo Dinh Diem and his family  (Read 2796 times)

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Offline Vladimir

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Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
« on: October 31, 2009, 08:36:13 PM »
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  •   Ngo Dinh Diem had solid credentials as a public servant. He was known for his honesty, zealousness, conservatism and devotion to Vietnamese independence. He worked his way up as a mandarin and came to court under the guidance of Nguyen HuuBai. He refused to be part of a puppet government and had resigned from the cabinet of Bao Dai and had refused to work with him subsequently. It was a difficult position for Ngo Dinh Diem, whose family had served the Nguyen Dynasty for a long time and who was a devoted monarchist. However, he viewed Bao Dai as unworthy and ineffective. When he finally consented to be Prime Minister of the State of Vietnam under Bao Dai many people noted the stark contrast between the two men dubbed the puritan and the playboy. As much as the former emperor was known for his womanizing and hedonism, Diem was known for his asceticism and devout Catholic faith. He attended mass daily, prayed for two hours a day and spent his free time secluded in monasteries. He had considered taking holy orders but did not, leaving that to his elder brother Ngo DinhThuc who became Archbishop of Hue.
       
              As the Prime Minister, Diem was determined to fulfill the promise he made to the former Emperor to clean up South Vietnamese government and society and he did this even when it meant tearing down those criminal elements Bao Dai had ties with. Ngo Din Diem started by dismissing troublesome officials and practically declaring war on the BinhXuyen gang which ran the gambling houses, opium dens and brothels in Saigon and who sent a percentage to the former Emperor and the French for turning a blind eye to their activities. In a direct provocation Diem held a symbolic mass burning of opium pipes to show his contempt for this racket of sin. It finally came down to violence and in a head to head fight in the streets of Saigon; Diem defeated the Bin Xuyen and their leader Le Van Vien. Similarly, Diem went against the armed cults of the Hoa Hao and Cao Dai. The campaign was successful but these actions also sent pleas to the former Emperor in France who had formerly looked the other way to their actions though most did not support him or the French anyway. Bao Dai then attempted to dismiss Ngo Dinh Diem who, especially after uncovering all of these activities, decided that the nominal position of the former Emperor had to go.   
       
              In 1955 Ngo Dinh Diem held a referendum in which the choice was put to the people to retain the former Emperor in France or to have a republic with Diem as president. After changing camps so many times and being appointed to his position by the French, Bao Dai had practically no support in South Vietnam and Ngo Dinh Diem easily won becoming the first President of the new Republic of Vietnam. It was a difficult step for someone like Diem to take, but he viewed it as the only way and now he was free to put his ideas about government into effect, all of which were influenced by his Catholic morality. As a side note, Emperor Bao Dai eventually calmed down somewhat, married a French woman (who he had always been more fond of anyway) and himself eventually converted to the Catholic faith of his late wife and children, meaning that had things gone differently early on Vietnam might have had a Catholic Emperor today as so many had long hoped for.   

              However, this was not too different from what existed in South Vietnam under President Ngo Dinh Diem. Cut from the old cloth, many commented that Diem behaved more like a monarch than a politician. He instituted many sweeping reforms and programs to encourage patriotism, anti-communism and public morality. With internal corruption still being a problem for the regime in Saigon he was forced to rely heavily on his family, particularly his brother Ngo DinhNhu, head of the Can Lao personalist party and his wife, known as Madame Nhu, who took on the role of unofficial First Lady of South Vietnam. In the Geneva agreement that ended the French war in Vietnam it was decided that after a certain period of time elections would be held throughout North and South Vietnam to determine which government would unite the country. President Diem, wisely, refused to go along with this since Ho Chi Minh had established a Communist dictatorship in the north and had long been sending political agents south and would certainly get 100% of the vote in all the areas he controlled. Communist agents would αssαssιnαtҽ village leaders and torture local officials to frighten the peasants into either joining them or at least remaining neutral and not supporting Ngo Dinh Diem.   
              Because of this, President Diem launched a nationwide campaign in South Vietnam to eliminate the Communist threat. He built up his army and police forces who for a time managed to succeed and all but destroy the Communist presence in the south. However, Ho Chi Minh was not willing to give up on his goal of ruling all of Vietnam and he began to send Communist agents and later Communist weapons and soldiers into South Vietnam where they formed a terrorist organization known as the Viet Cong which had the goal of overthrowing President Diem and making South Vietnam Communist. They carried out terrorist attacks such as bombings and assassinations and threatened to undo all that Diem had accomplished. As a result, the United States, now under her first Catholic President, John F. Kennedy, sent more American aid and military advisors to South Vietnam to assist Ngo Dinh Diem. There was also a massive migration of Vietnamese Catholics escaping from the Communist north and coming south. Whole parish communities were transplanted and these faithful Catholics were to be the most reliable base of support for President Diem and his anti-Communist crusade.   

              The support of the Eisenhower administration and later President Kennedy for Ngo Dinh Diem was the beginning of the American War in Vietnam, though the US did not take the lead in the war effort until after Diem was gone. As the Viet Cong stepped up their attacks, Diem launched a comprehensive campaign to elevate Vietnamese society and combat Communism. At home this included the campaign to promote morality which Madame Nhu played a part in and reflected the Catholic principles of the Presidential family. Divorce, contraception and abortion were outlawed, adultery laws were strengthened, beauty contests were banned and dance halls, fighting rings, brothels and opium dens were closed. This campaign of public decency, while undoubtedly good for society, raised opposition from the less desirable elements. The United States also expressed disapproval of the Catholic ruling family in Vietnam, especially Ngo DinhNhu and his wife. President Diem, however, relied on them and would change nothing. He would be the puppet of no foreign power and would not give in to efforts to divide his government and spread internal dissension.


              For his part, Ngo DinhNhu concentrated on building up a sound political doctrine for the new nation, based on the inherent worth of the human person. He was also largely responsible for combating Communist infiltration and helped develop the idea for the Strategic Hamlet Program. This was an effort to cut the Viet Cong off from their support in the countryside by concentrating the peasants onto heavily fortified hamlets that could be easily defended. Yet, Communist infiltration continued, despite the best efforts of President Diem. They saw in him a real threat and someone with a level of tenacity to equal their own and the Viet Cong made it their number one goal to topple him. Meanwhile, criticism from the international community was growing against Diem who was accused of being too autocratic and intolerant of opposition. These critics either failed to understand or chose to ignore the fractured nature of the country he inherited. Diem had to ensure total unity and show no weakness if he was to defeat the Communists. Ho Chi Minh of course was a dictator who had eliminated all of his opposition in a succession of purges and so he was able to command a North Vietnam totally united by force and intimidation. They were using those same methods in South Vietnam and President Diem had to do whatever was possible to keep the Communists at bay and he was fully prepared to do so regardless of his popularity on the world stage.   

              This situation came to a peak with the Buddhist crisis in 1963. President Diem had long warned the Buddhists that they needed to do more to regulate their religion since, as it stood, anyone could shave their hair, don a yellow robe and pass as a Buddhist monk. Nothing changed and soon information came about that several Buddhist temples had been infiltrated by Communists. South Vietnamese military units responded to the threat and were faced by a skillful Communist propaganda campaign. Buddhists appeared on American television telling people that they were brutalized by government troops, forced to become Catholic and other absurdities. Protests were held across South Vietnam, especially Hue. The news media was tipped off to be on hand and signs were written in English as well as Vietnamese to play to U.S. audiences. Finally, in a horrific display a Buddhist monk burned himself alive in the street, on camera, to protest the regime of Ngo Dinh Diem.

    President Diem tried to get a handle on the situation, but world opinion continued to turn against him. The Pope criticized his actions, which he feared harmed Christian - Buddhist dialogue, and President Kennedy suspended aid to South Vietnam and began to hint that American support might cease unless South Vietnam came under new leadership. Yet, as in all times past, Diem refused to give in to pressure. Madame Nhu caused a stir when she reiterated the guilt of the Buddhists involved and referred to the incident as a barbecue. She went on a tour of the United States to denounce the liberal policies of the Kennedy administration and was still in the US when word came that a group of generals in Saigon had staged a coup against President Diem. Madame Nhu said her husband and brother-in-law had suspected it for some time and predicted that America would be involved.


              These words turned out to be right on both counts. American officials knew about the coup ahead of time and had given it their blessing. In the end, President Ngo Dinh Diem, Ngo DinhNhu and a priest they were traveling with were all shot by the rebel forces under the overall command of General Duong Van Minh. They were shot after having given themselves up to their enemies and being promised safe passage out of the country. Madame Nhu was understandably furious at the role America had played in the downfall and death of her family. A descendant of the Emperor Dong Khanh and a Catholic convert, she was a proud woman and when President Kennedy was αssαssιnαtҽd only three weeks later, when asked if she had anything to say to Mrs. Jackie Kennedy, Madame Nhu replied, 'Now you know what it feels like'. She went into exile in Italy where she lives to this day. Madame Nhu also predicted a dark future for Vietnam and the United States and she was to be proven all too true.

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    Other notable Catholics in the Ngo family - Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc, Cardinal Nguyen Van Thuan

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    What a heroic family! This family is the crown Jєωel of my country.




    Offline Elizabeth

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #1 on: October 31, 2009, 10:21:53 PM »
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  • My old laptop broke, but I had saved on it a recording of  President Johnson saying something like, hell yes we killed him... (the Prime Minister)  I can try to figure out where I found this.  I had been trying to understand the history of Abp. Thuc -struggling with inferior research and computer skills.

    I have been so curious about what happened to Abp. Thuc to cause the controversy with some Catholics in the US.  I had also saved a very interesting audio interview with a priest who had been living in some rectory, and he spoke of some very, very questionable behavior on the part of whomever was in charge with regarding the Abp.  Oh, my poor memory!  Some one hid Abp. Thuc's passport, kept him there when he wished to go.

    Does anybody know anything about this?  It is uncanny to come across this OP, Vladimir, because I was thinking and wondering about this just this evening.

    I would like to know what happened to Abp. Thuc and why some people call him insane or worse.  I would like to know if this is justified.  I am sorry that a particular priest's diagnosis of mental health cannot be trusted.  I would love to know the truth, instead of self-serving rumors.


    Offline Vladimir

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #2 on: October 31, 2009, 10:26:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    My old laptop broke, but I had saved on it a recording of  President Johnson saying something like, hell yes we killed him... (the Prime Minister)  I can try to figure out where I found this.  I had been trying to understand the history of Abp. Thuc -struggling with inferior research and computer skills.

    I have been so curious about what happened to Abp. Thuc to cause the controversy with some Catholics in the US.  I had also saved a very interesting audio interview with a priest who had been living in some rectory, and he spoke of some very, very questionable behavior on the part of whomever was in charge with regarding the Abp.  Oh, my poor memory!  Some one hid Abp. Thuc's passport, kept him there when he wished to go.

    Does anybody know anything about this?  It is uncanny to come across this OP, Vladimir, because I was thinking and wondering about this just this evening.

    I would like to know what happened to Abp. Thuc and why some people call him insane or worse.  I would like to know if this is justified.  I am sorry that a particular priest's diagnosis of mental health cannot be trusted.  I would love to know the truth, instead of self-serving rumors.


    There was an audio interview on the Diamond Brother's website about Archbishop Thuc. The story was similar to what you described. I do not think that he was insane, but certainly the he acted rashly and his judgment was somewhat off (for example consecrating "Old Catholic" bishops?!?)



    Offline Elizabeth

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #3 on: October 31, 2009, 10:28:24 PM »
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  • The close timing of the assassinations of two prominent Catholic leaders and the Third Secret not being revealed by 1960, and the huge crisis in the Church pique my curiosity.

     :incense:

    Offline Vladimir

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #4 on: October 31, 2009, 10:32:09 PM »
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  • May this injustice be avenged!




    Offline Elizabeth

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #5 on: October 31, 2009, 10:35:24 PM »
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  • I would be surprised if I had found this on the Diminds, because I stopped reading them years ago.  But it may be...it sort of seems it was an SSPX site, maybe the Long Island radio, I forget its name.  

    But I trust your memory more than mine, Vladimir!  I need some ginko and fish oil!

    Offline Elizabeth

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    « Reply #6 on: October 31, 2009, 10:39:40 PM »
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  • Wow, is that the Prime Minister or the priest in the photo?


    Offline Vladimir

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #7 on: October 31, 2009, 10:48:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    Wow, is that the Prime Minister or the priest in the photo?



    that is Ngo Dinh Diem. He and his brother were praying in the cathedral of Sai Gon before they were killed.
    Quote from: roscoe

    I would be surprised if I had found this on the Diminds, because I stopped reading them years ago. But it may be...it sort of seems it was an SSPX site, maybe the Long Island radio, I forget its name.

    But I trust your memory more than mine, Vladimir! I need some ginko and fish oil!


    I just found it by chance. I liked it, because it didn't include the usual Diamond propaganda.




    Offline Elizabeth

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    « Reply #8 on: October 31, 2009, 10:55:27 PM »
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  • I'll see if i can listen to it.  If it was a priest who interviewed, it has to be the same one, I figure.

    Offline Vladimir

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #9 on: November 01, 2009, 12:12:42 AM »
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  • Madame Nhu says:

    "If one has no courage to denounce, if one bows to madness and stupidity, how can one ever hope to cope with the other wrongs of humanity exploited in the same fashion by Communists?" (speaking on Buddhist public immolations)

    "I may shock some by saying 'I would beat such provocateurs ten times more if they wore monks robes,' and 'I would clap hands at seeing another monk barbecue show, for one can not be responsible for the madness of others.'"

    "Let them (monks) burn and we shall clap our hands."

    "I cannot stay in a country whose government stabbed me in the back. I believe all the devils in hell are against us."

    "My family has been treacherously killed with either official or unofficial blessing of the American Government, I can predict to you now that the story is only at its beginning."

    "Judas has sold the Christ for 30 pieces of silver. The Ngo brothers have been sold for a few dollars."



    Offline Raoul76

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #10 on: November 01, 2009, 01:30:08 AM »
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  • Elizabeth, the bishop who purportedly kept Archbishop -- or Bishop, since he was made Archbishop by John XXIII -- locked up was Bishop Vezelis.  According to that same interview, Bishop Vezelis was not especially concerned when Archbishop Thuc was kidnapped because he didn't want him to go around consecrating anyone else.  He didn't want any competition.

    I was a catechumen with the Vezelis group at one time, before switching to CMRI.  Midway through my catechumenate I learned from that Michael Dimond interview that Bishop Vezelis considers himself the only bishop in the U.S. and makes all those who go there sign a paper acknowledging him as the only bishop.  Sign on the schismatic line, eh?  

    I wrote their secondary bishop, the Germanic and stern Bishop Giles, if it were true that I had to accept their group as the only one.  "You will have to submit to the true bishop" was his response.  I then remembered their priest saying that I had to make the bishop "the bishop of my soul" and freaked out.  I never went back.

    Now that I think NFP is a heresy this is all moot as I believe the entire sedevacantist clergy is under the evil spell of Pius XII.  I remember asking their priest about NFP because it bothered me even then.  He said "We allow it, but we don't teach it."  Well, excuse me, but if it's permissible and not a heresy then you shouldn't be ashamed of it.  

    So there really are no priests and bishops at the moment, as far as I can see.  It has been an adventure trying to find one though.

    P.S. Interestingly, both Bishops Vezelis and Pivarunas are Lithuanian.  Guess who else was half Lithuanian-Jєω?  JPII!  Not a ringing endorsement for that country.  Also a creepy friend I had before becoming Catholic who I'm pretty sure was a vampire trying to eat my soul was Lithuanian, so maybe there is a running theme here.  Stay away from Lithuanians.

    Here's a pic of JP-II in Lithuania, he was the first "Pope" to visit there and said "Half my heart is in Lithuania."  What on Earth is going on with his face?  Someone call an exorcist!  


    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Elizabeth

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    « Reply #11 on: November 01, 2009, 03:04:56 PM »
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  • I thank everyone from the bottom of my heart for any information about Abp. Thuc.

    Sometimes people who are ignorant of other cultures assign insanity to certain manners and customs.  For example, my Victorian era grandparents really did not think or act like anyone I have ever known since.

    But I am certain that an aristocratic,  royal family Vietnamese archbishop just plain does things differently than we do.  Expects different results, assumes things in all innocence.  (I know that is a clumsy explanation, sorry)

    Here's another example, but a weak one.  A dear friend of mine was raised with a houseful of maids in South America,  She is so different from the average American.  Her entire way of relating is different, although she is a good Catholic.  Like she had one of her nannies sleeping in a walk-in closet-no problemo for Nanny or Mrs. X.

    So who is Fr. Vizellis?  Where is he from, etc?  Thanks.


    Offline Elizabeth

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #12 on: November 01, 2009, 03:09:41 PM »
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  • Raoul, about JP2's face.

    Lithium, wouldn't you say?

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 01:28:08 AM »
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  •   Never weep for a hero. No,never, even if he suffered the greatest cruelties. But envy his virtues and happy eternity.

    Offline Caraffa

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    Ngo Dinh Diem and his family
    « Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 05:36:39 PM »
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  • Today marks the 46th anniversary of his death. The Americanist faux Catholics like Kennedy and Spellman thought that they could make Deim into a puppet for American interests. When they found out that he care less about their desires and their Americanism, Kennedy had the CIA take out Deim.
    Pray for me, always.