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Author Topic: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill  (Read 6543 times)

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Offline Clemens Maria

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Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2019, 08:19:26 PM »
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  • Here advice by Thomas á Kempis:

    Quote
    Quote
    If read you must, then read on, letting the love of Truth be your guide. Don’t ask who wrote it. Just pay attention to what’s said.
    He also wrote this:
    Quote
    It is a great impediment that we so much regard signs and sensible things, and have but little of perfect mortification.
    ...
    Nature is often deceived, but grace hath her trust in God that she may not be deceived.  — Imitation of Christ, Book III, Ch 31


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #31 on: July 21, 2019, 08:48:11 PM »
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  • You just show that your prejudice makes you blind. The light-carrying medium is proven by the experiments of Sagnac and of Michelson & Gale.

    Why not use your reason and watch the video?
    Why insist in staying uneducated?
    Why keep trolling this thread?
    The claim that the M&M experiment tested to see if the Earth was moving is still factually incorrect, and asserting the Earth being stationary as its conclusion is also false. Same goes for the other experiments he cited that "showed" the Earth was stationary. If it's his assertion that the Aether is real and he wants to prove it later on in the video, he can say as much. But not even mentioning the Aether in the context of those experiments and lying about what the experiments were about and what they proved - is just intentionally misleading the viewer.

    He also falsely accused Lorentz and Fitzgerald of petitio principii, saying that they assumed the Earth was moving to prove that it did. This is not true, as the M&M experiment was not designed to determine whether or not the Earth was moving and did not claim to come to a conclusion on that matter. The conclusion of the experiment was that Aether winds could not be detected. Assuming the Earth is moving in an explanation of the results of an experiment about the existence of Aether Winds(phew, what a worldful) is not petitio principii. The conclusion(whether or not Aether winds exist) is not part of the assumption at all. So once again, Sungenis blatantly misrepresents.

    If it's the truth you're interested in, you shouldn't be defending fallacies or sneaky tactics. Even if we assume geocentrism is true, his misrepresentation and downright lying about certain things in the video would be picked up immediately by heliocentrists watching and they'd probably just click away at that point, assuming the rest of the video to be the same. Geocentrism is something I hope is true, as it'd be by far the easiest way of proving God to atheists, and I'm willing to give Sungenis the benefit of the doubt that the rest of the video is worth watching, so I continue, but that doesn't mean I'm just going to ignore misrepresentations, lies and fallacies he's made in the parts I've watched so far.


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #32 on: July 21, 2019, 09:29:57 PM »
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  • The fact that the M&M experiment tested to see if the Earth was moving is still factually incorrect, and asserting the Earth being stationary as its conclusion is also false.

    Neither Sungenis nor I assert what you insinuate here. You're fighting a strawman!

    The experiments of Airy, Sagnac, Michelson&Morley, and Michelson&Gale together prove the existence of the Aether and they confirm geocentrism.

    I am not interested in debating a series of unfounded claims of a user, who declares that he has "very little knowledge" on the subject. Please open your own thread: "Why forlorn won't watch the new video of Sungenis".


    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #33 on: July 22, 2019, 07:11:10 AM »
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  • The experiments of Airy, Sagnac, Michelson&Morley, and Michelson&Gale together prove the existence of the Aether and they confirm geocentrism.
    Any single experiment can be compatible with many theories.

    Even if some small set of experiments are compatible with luminiferous aether, they don't "prove" it, because they (and other experiments you don't mention) are all compatible with special or general relativity.

    Here's a question for you. Consider an apple dropping from a tree. Is the view that the apple accelerates toward the ground equally valid as the view that the earth accelerates toward the apple? Why or why not?


    I read them. It's basic vector calculus.
    Yes, it appears Popov can do vector calc. (That alone is a level of competence - from Popov and you - I have not yet seen from Sungenis.) But did you not see anything curious about any of the formulas?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #34 on: July 22, 2019, 07:49:04 AM »
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  • Here's a question for you. Consider an apple dropping from a tree. Is the view that the apple accelerates toward the ground equally valid as the view that the earth accelerates toward the apple? Why or why not?
    I’ll take a stab.  Yes, equally valid.  Because in science you can choose your frame of reference arbitrarily.  The physics will still apply no matter what frame you choose.


    Offline Spork

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #35 on: July 22, 2019, 07:52:39 AM »
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  • Can we back up a bit? 

    What is the importance of Aether? How does it prove or disprove the Geocentric model? Or Heliocentric model? 

    Thanks! 

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #36 on: July 22, 2019, 08:27:27 AM »
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  • I’ll take a stab.  Yes, equally valid.  Because in science you can choose your frame of reference arbitrarily.  The physics will still apply no matter what frame you choose.
    NOT TRUE.
    Frame of reference is not arbitrary.
    This is the entire reason why Einstein's "theory" of relativity is in error.
    Relativism, in all things, moral and scientific, is a theological error.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #37 on: July 22, 2019, 09:09:26 AM »
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  • Can we back up a bit?

    What is the importance of Aether? How does it prove or disprove the Geocentric model? Or Heliocentric model?

    Thanks!
    Modern natural science (meaning the last 400 years, give or take) sees the earth moving through space, and from that perspective, the motion of the earth has nothing particular to do with any aether theory. Aether theory primarily concerns the nature of light.

    Newton thought light was composed of particles - called the "corpuscular theory" of light. But by the 18th century, scientists also saw that light had properties like a wave. Other waves propagate by vibrating some medium - water waves in water, sound waves in air. So they thought there must be some medium for light to propagate as a wave. That was called the luminiferous aether. Luminiferous aether also fit in with the notion of an absolute reference frame. Newtonian mechanics works in a reference frame that is non-accelerating, and its methodology kind of assumes an absolute reference frame exists. (Even if, in practice, it's recognized as an approximation.)

    But luminiferous aether also raised problems. It filled space, but it didn't seem to interact with any of the planets (so no mass or apparent viscosity). Did planets go through the aether, or was the aether pulled along with them invisibly? How did aether support high frequencies of light - for normal materials, it takes a solid to support high frequencies. It was a shaky idea even in the 1800s.

    So experiments tried to nail down what it was. Among these were the Michelson Morley experiments. They sent light through equal length paths in different directions. If light propagated through aether, then it should take different times to go the same length moving parallel to the aether vs. transverse to the aether. Like the earth. But they found light moved the same speed within their measurement precision. (MM-type experiments were later done with better precision.)

    After this, modern science went down two paths - either aether doesn't exist, or the earth is dragging it along - so the earth is not moving relative to the local aether. The second path, aether drag, was eventually rejected due to other experiments/observations. That left the first path- that there is no aether. This path led to special relativity (SR) and general relativity (GR). There are, in modern science, alternative theories to SR/GR that still have "aether" as long as 1) it's not a preferred reference frame, and 2) it's not physically detectable.

    What does this have to do with geocentrism? Geocentrists say the earth isn't moving - which means it has to be non-moving with reference to something. That something is usually the aether. (I suppose the reference frame doesn't strictly need to be the aether, but I don't think any prominent geocentrists promote a non-aerher reference frame.) And they interpret the Michelson Morley experiment as showing the earth doesn't move with respect to that aether.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #38 on: July 22, 2019, 10:03:17 AM »
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  • Neither Sungenis nor I assert what you insinuate here. You're fighting a strawman!

    The experiments of Airy, Sagnac, Michelson&Morley, and Michelson&Gale together prove the existence of the Aether and they confirm geocentrism.

    I am not interested in debating a series of unfounded claims of a user, who declares that he has "very little knowledge" on the subject. Please open your own thread: "Why forlorn won't watch the new video of Sungenis".
    He explicitly says the conclusion of the M&M experiment was that the Earth is stationary and he repeats this claim many, many times. Anyone can see that for themselves by watching the video, I don't know why you're trying to cover for him there. 

    Yes, I admitted that I have very little knowledge on the subject, because unlike you I don't suffer from a severe case of the Dunning-Kruger Effect and don't pretend to be an expert. But even with the very limited knowledge I do have, I can see that Sungenis is either ignorantly or willfully misrepresenting the aims and the conclusions of the experiments, and then using those misrepresentations to accuse other scientists of fallacious reasoning to discredit their theories.

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #39 on: July 22, 2019, 10:23:04 AM »
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  • More if you want it L:asramie.


    I have read the Culture Wars article on Sir Isaac Newton as well.  But what I really want to see is if anyone's combed through his Principia Mathematika with direct, detailed criticism on the things he's said.  Has anyone explicated his work and then shot it down?  This, I would like to see.  



    But from what I can gather, it appears as though everyone's merely stood back in horror and said, "Oh!  That's great!  Very scientific!  Newton, you're a genius!"  When in reality, his book is so dense and confusing that people avoid it.  

    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #40 on: July 24, 2019, 08:51:42 PM »
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  • Any single experiment can be compatible with many theories.

    Yes, but what you need here is at least one theory compatible with Airy, Sagnac, Michelson&Morley, and Michelson&Gale.



    Even if some small set of experiments are compatible with luminiferous aether, they don't "prove" it, because they (and other experiments you don't mention) are all compatible with special or general relativity.

    That's wrong. E.g. the Michelson&Gale experiment falsifies Special Relativity by falsifying the postulate that the speed of light does not depend on the movement of the observer.


    Here's a question for you. Consider an apple dropping from a tree. Is the view that the apple accelerates toward the ground equally valid as the view that the earth accelerates toward the apple? Why or why not?

    No. The reason is: Airy, Sagnac, Michelson&Morley, and Michelson&Gale. These experiments together falsify all Copernicanism and confirm what every child sees before it is fooled at school.


    Yes, it appears Popov can do vector calc. (That alone is a level of competence - from Popov and you - I have not yet seen from Sungenis.) But did you not see anything curious about any of the formulas?

    Sungenis has a co-author of his "Galileo was wrong" books who is an academic physicist. What do you find curious?

    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #41 on: July 24, 2019, 09:17:58 PM »
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  • Can we back up a bit?

    What is the importance of Aether? How does it prove or disprove the Geocentric model? Or Heliocentric model?

    Thanks!

    Watch the video!
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #42 on: July 24, 2019, 10:07:30 PM »
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  • About the Forces behind modern Physics




    Quote from: Lawrence Krauss
    I just returned from the Virgin Islands, from a delightful event — a conference in St. Thomas — that I organized with 21 physicists. I like small events, and I got to hand-pick the people. The topic of the meeting was "Confronting Gravity. "
    [...] I invited a group of cosmologists, experimentalists, theorists, and particle physicists. Stephen Hawking came. We had three Nobel laureates: Gerard 't Hooft, David Gross, Frank Wilczek; well-known cosmologists and physicists such as Jim Peebles at Princeton, Alan Guth at MIT, Kip Thorne at Caltech, Lisa Randall at Harvard; experimentalists, such as Barry Barish of LIGO, the gravitational wave observatory; we had observational cosmologists, people looking at the cosmic microwave background; we had Maria Spiropulu from CERN, who's working on the Large Hadron Collider—which, a decade ago, people wouldn't have thought it was a probe of gravity, but now due to recent work in the possibility of extra dimensions it might be.

    Quote
    Krauss intended to have "a meeting where people would look forward to the key issues facing fundamental physics and cosmology". They could meet, discuss, relax on the beach, and take a trip to the nearby private island retreat of the science philanthropist Jeffrey Epstein, who funded the event.


    https://www.edge.org/conversation/lawrence_m_krauss-the-energy-of-empty-space-that-isnt-zero
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline cassini

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #43 on: July 25, 2019, 11:57:20 AM »
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  • Can we back up a bit?

    What is the importance of Aether? How does it prove or disprove the Geocentric model? Or Heliocentric model?

    Thanks!

    The word ‘ether’ is not used much these days except when referring to the colourless volatile liquid known by that name. The concept of ether has been accepted since the time of Aristotle at least and was also acknowledged by the Fathers of the Church and indeed entered their discussion on the interpretation of the heavens and ‘firmament’ of Genesis. Ether or aether was considered omnipresent throughout all space (including the Earth’s at­mosphere), and that it may even interpenetrate matter. It is however, diffic­ult to rationalise with ether, for it has always remained outside known scientific certainty. It was considered a medium through which all the properties of electromagnetism, that is, light and heat from the sun etc., can travel, but more demonstrably the medium for sound, for sound cannot pass through a vacuum.  

    Our interest in ether goes back to Isaac Newton and his theory of gravitation. He proposed matter attracts and that this principle explains his theory of heliocentrism with the bigger mass of the sun supposedly attracting all smaller cosmic bodies around it causing these in turn to move about the sun in elliptical orbits. ‘Action at a distance’ Newton called it. ‘Ghost fingers,’ ‘invisible hands’ and ‘spooky,’ others called it, but no one could say how this ‘attraction’ worked across millions of miles of space. Some concluded that Newton’s gravitational pull had to operate through the ether of space. Ironically, Newton conducted a test that he believed showed that there is no such thing as ether. 

    ‘If space is really empty how is it that the sun and moon exercise influence over the Earth? Technical action at a distance is impossible. A body can only act immediately on what it is in contact with; it must be by the action of contiguous particles – that is, through a continuous medium, that force can be transmitted across space. Radiation is not the only thing the Earth feels from the sun; there is in addition its gigantic gravitational pull, a force or tension more than what a trillion steel rods, each seventeen feet in diameter, could stand. What mechanism transmits this gigantic force?’[1]

    You tell us Sir Oliver, you’re the Newtonian with your ‘gigantic gravitational pull across space.’ To keep Newton’s theories alive they had to call upon ether, a fixed agent in which the universe resides and through which moving celestial bodies and radiation can move. Accordingly, the very existence and behaviour of ether in space had to be investigated.

    [1] Sir O. Lodge: Ether of Space, Harper, London & New York, 1909, p.26.

    The nineteenth century saw the beginning of many experiments trying to determine the presence and nature of ether on Earth and in space. Assuming the Earth moves around the sun at 67,000mph it was thought the ether – due to the aberration effect - would cause a split-starlight beam to move out of focus as the Earth turned away from it during orbit. This result was looked for without any success. In 1818 the physicist Augustin Fresnel suggested a possible reason for this Earthmoving failure. He proposed the ether is thicker around matter and less dense away from it in space. Thus the tool used in the test had dragged ether along with it as it moved through space giving a nil result.
         The next test was to see if ether could be detected in a fairly dense material that was itself moving. The physicist Armand Fizeau conducted such a trial in 1859. Pumping water through a tube that did a u-turn, he sent two beams of light, one with the flow, and the other against the flow, for an equal distance. The beams used did not return in phase indicating the ‘Fresnel drag coefficient’ might have some experimental support after all. Alas, many factors had to be assumed to reach such a conclusion and as we have said again and again, assumptions are not facts. ‘Ether drag’ was only a possibility if the ether exists and behaves, as they thought it might.       
         Other physicists then joined the quest. Thomas Young supposed the ether in the neighbourhood of the Earth to be stationary while Sir George Stokes again said the Earth dragged it. Planck showed that Stokes’s theory could be saved if extraordinary assumptions are made such as that ether is compressible like a gas and also subject to gravity. Lorentz worked out a theory whereby the Earth imparted to the ether in its neighbourhood, not the whole of its velocity, but only a fraction of it. Hertz supposed that within matter the ether takes part in the motion of matter, and it is also moving in space free from matter, if you know what he meant. In 1871, when the Airy experiment using two telescopes showed that stellar aberration indicated the Earth did not move, the ether drag theory was immediately re-proposed in order to get the Earth moving again. But proposing is not proving. Proof for the presence of ether eluded science. Scientists were left wondering what is the true nature of the medium that man presumed carries or propagates waves, particles and whatever?
    Then there was electromagnetism, all of its phenomena travelling through space at 186,200 mph. Any progress of science demanded investigation into the agency through which these electromagnetic waves (or pulses) were thought to propagate. This medium, all believed, had to be that known as ‘ether of space’ or ‘luminiferous (light-bearing) ether’ as Maxwell called it.
    In the late 1860s German born American physicist Albert A. Michelson (1852-1931) decided to re-enact an experiment performed by Martinus Hoek in 1868 to see if it was possible to detect the orbital movement of the Earth using what he called an interferometer. Hoek failed to find any movement but Michelson believed he could do better. With the financial help of Alexander Bell, inventor of the telephone, they rebuilt their own machine that he believed would detect the ether as the Earth supposedly flies through space orbiting the sun.

    Offline cassini

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    Re: New Sungenis film: The Fool on the Hill
    « Reply #44 on: July 25, 2019, 12:01:22 PM »
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  • Taking for granted that the Earth moves through space at 30 kilometres per second as it supposedly orbits around the sun, Michelson reckoned he had all the ingredients to conduct his experiment: (1) the assumed speed and direction of the Earth as it orbited the sun; (2) the speed of light, and the presumed existence of ether. With all this data, he believed, a definitive and accurate test could be conducted that would demonstrate the existence of ether at least. Michelson first tried this experiment in 1881. His apparatus consisted of two equal arms at right angles to each other and a ray of light passed along each arm. Each arm was provided with a mirror placed at its far end, and thus each ray was reflected back to the junction of the two arms. The idea is simple. If an arm (F) is pointed in the direction of the Earth’s supposed orbit and a light beam is sent down and back along it, the resistance caused by the ether to that beam of light should be greater than the resistance to a beam moving on an arm (S) at right angles to it where there is no such direct resistance.
     As an equation, if ether (E) is stationary, then the Earth’s speed (v) in relation to the ether must be 30 kms/s, i.e., ten thousand times slower than the speed of light © in relation to the ether (E). Therefore, for an observer on Earth (also at v in relation to the ether), the beam of light (a) travelling in the same direction as the Earth would seem to move at the relative speed of c + v. Inversely, the beam (b) returning to the observer would seem to move at a speed of c - v. To find a way of measuring these different speeds, Michelson’s interferometer would split a beam, causing the (a) part-beam to ‘interfere’ with the (b) part-beam. By analysing the interference fringes Michelson would be able to measure the difference between the two apparent speeds, i.e., (c + v) - (c – v). The maths involved indicated there should be the equivalent of a 30km/s. difference, i.e., (c + v) - (c – v) = 30km/s.
     
    The Michelson and Morley Failure
     
    Try hard as he did, Michelson failed again and again to find the 30kms/s. interference fringe he believed was inevitable. So sure was he that the Earth really did move through the ether that he thought there must be some fault in the experiment. Michelson called in the help of a colleague, the American chemist Edward Williams Morley, so that both of them could conduct a definitive experiment. Nothing would be overlooked with both scientists carefully double checking every aspect of the test.[1] Nor could the instrument be faulted, because whatever about the astronomic and physics theories of the day their technology was made to the highest standard of accuracy. In July of 1887, having improved the equipment as well as was technically possible, Michelson and Morley conducted a definitive test.[2]  
     
    ‘At noon on 8th, 9th and 10th July, and at around 6pm on 8th, 9th and 12th July, Michelson walked round with the rotating apparatus calling out results while Morley recorded the observations. They were deeply disappointed, for no effect remotely resembling the expected speed of the aether was found. Once more the experiment produced a null result.’[3]

    Now what do you think they meant by a ‘null’ result? The dictionary describes ‘null’ in many ways, including nil, or of no value or significance, to their way of thinking no doubt. In fact, this costly and intricate interferometer discovered movement above five kilometres a second, far shorter than the required 30 kilometres per second predicted, but some sort of movement nevertheless. Michelson believed this was a valid demonstration, and even with a margin of error due to human or mechanical shortfalls he believed the 5kms a second interference did show the existence of ether and that it was not altogether dragged along with the Earth as Freshnel’s theory had speculated.

    [1] All of these expectations were of course built up on the assumption that the Earth moves at 67,000mph through space. Since then however, with the further theory that the universe is expanding at huge speed (1,000,000mph?), they would now have to add that to the Earth’s inertia so the required interference fringe would have to be updated somewhat. To our knowledge no one has ever noticed this proposed expansion velocity should now be taken into account. 
    [2] Albert A Michelson and Edward W. Morley: On the Relative Motion of the Earth and the Luminiferous Ether, American Journal of Science – Nov. 1887, pp.333-345.
    [3] Harry Collins and Trevor Pinch: The Golem, Cambridge University Press, 1993, p.37.

    I can go on Spook, but you did ask.