Author Topic: Nephilim Controversy (Read 19794 times)

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #15 on:** March 06, 2012, 10:55:07 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Samurai

Quote from: LaramieHirsch
Heresy? I dunno. I buy the legend, at least. I have, ever since I was a kid. In my younger days, I was a Bible-thumping Protestant, and so of course, everything in the Bible was literal and true.

It still is.

My old ways of considering the Bible have not gone away. I still take Genesis quite literally, including Genesis 6:4.

I'll give you several verses in the same chapter proceeding that one that you can interpret just as literally and erroneously...

5.And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times,

6. It repented Him that He had made man on the earth. And being touched inwardly with sorrow of heart,

7. He said: I will destroy man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth, from man even to beasts from the creeping thing even to the fowls of the air, for it repenteth Me that I have made them.

We know God can have no regret for anything He does, as if He were capable of making mistakes etc., but a person could easily come to believe that by interpreting these verses literally.

Perhaps this is the old sola scriptura in me, as I am having difficulty grasping something.

If what you are saying is true, that those verses do not mean what they say, then why are they there in the first place?

Diego · « **Reply #16 on:** March 06, 2012, 10:57:46 PM »

Quote from: Koleci

I cant wait till the General Judgement, then we'll all see the real history of the world lol

I hope I am not too busy with my own problems that day; I too want to know the definitive history of the world. I think there is a special round in hell for those who use "conspiracy theorist" as an epithet. :-)

Miles Dei · « **Reply #17 on:** March 10, 2012, 02:21:34 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Koleci said: I cant wait till the General Judgement, then we'll all see the real history of the world lol.

I am also.

Miles Dei

Alex · « **Reply #18 on:** March 10, 2012, 03:18:58 PM »

Quote from: Koleci

There's even reference in Post Flood events in the Bible (e.g. Numbers, Deuteronomy, Kings) that the Giants were on the Earth then too.

I've read texts that say the fallen angels 're-corruped' (in whichever way that was) mankind (specifically the Canaanites), from where we have the Anakim, Rephaim etc (Numbers 13:33). That is why God apparently commanded that the Israelites exterminate the Canaanites and to a lesser extent the Philistines.

This is preposterous! Angels cannot procreate with humans. That would require them to have bodies and sex organs and would mean that they would also be living on earth. It would also mean that the offspring would be half human and different then both angels and humans. The giants were just that - humans of larger than normal stature and strength, but only human.

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #19 on:** March 10, 2012, 07:44:45 PM »

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Quote from: Catholic Samurai
Quote from: LaramieHirsch
Heresy? I dunno. I buy the legend, at least. I have, ever since I was a kid. In my younger days, I was a Bible-thumping Protestant, and so of course, everything in the Bible was literal and true.

It still is.

My old ways of considering the Bible have not gone away. I still take Genesis quite literally, including Genesis 6:4.

I'll give you several verses in the same chapter proceeding that one that you can interpret just as literally and erroneously...

5.And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times,

6. It repented Him that He had made man on the earth. And being touched inwardly with sorrow of heart,

7. He said: I will destroy man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth, from man even to beasts from the creeping thing even to the fowls of the air, for it repenteth Me that I have made them.

We know God can have no regret for anything He does, as if He were capable of making mistakes etc., but a person could easily come to believe that by interpreting these verses literally.

Perhaps this is the old sola scriptura in me, as I am having difficulty grasping something.

If what you are saying is true, that those verses do not mean what they say, then why are they there in the first place?

They are there to be transmitted and interpreted by the Church, not the common man.

The common belief held is that the "sons of God" is an expression in reference to Adams children who remained faithful to the True God and lived apart from Cain's paganized tribe, the women of which are referred to as the "daughters of men".

One people are "of God" because they followed His precepts (at least to some extent), and the other are "of Men" because they indulged their fallen inclinations so far as to remove God from their thoughts and embrace paganism.

The "sons of God" took wives .... meaning THEY GOT MARRIED. It couldn't have been a demonic one night stand like some people are fantasizing.

What happened here is men born into the True Faith, at that time, let themselves be seduced by women who were devil worshipers (in addition to being hot), disregarded their parent's wisdom, and married them. Daddy's lax in his faith, mommy worships a serpent and has few or no morals... guess how their kids turned out?

How hard is it that natural interpretation to believe?

There is nothing at all written that suggests that the "sons of God" were fallen angels in human form (in the DR version anyway).

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #20 on:** March 10, 2012, 08:07:25 PM »

I've heard theories that the Nephtalim were the Neanderthals.

Malleus 01 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 13, 2012, 04:38:59 PM »

Quote from: Koleci

"Now giants were upon the earth in those days. For after the sons of God went in to the daughters of men, and they brought forth children, these are the mighty men of old, men of renown". Genesis 6:4

Is there a DEFINITIVE Church Teaching on the Nephilim? It seems as though all ancient sources are more inclined towards the more sinister involvement of demons, whereas more modern theologians think it means Sethites. Here is a link of what the Early Church Fathers thought, as they were split on this topic; http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Chapter5.htm

Here is another great article by Barbara Aho; http://www.mt.net/~watcher/enoch5.html

Sons of God were either;

1) Sons of Seth, who intermarried with the Daughters of Cain (which somehow produced giants? And gave them almost supernatural abilities etc?) This is interpreted as to be a warning against mixed marriages... but then why would God ANNIHILATE the whole human race but 8 because of mixed marriages, something more sinister had to be happening.

2) Sons of God refers to angel who fell to Earth, and in doing so adopted physical bodies and fornicated with the women. "And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day. As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire". Jude 1:6-7. The Book of Enoch, although not canonical, supports this, as does Flavius Josephus.

3) A mix of premises 1 and 2. Sons of Seth became involved in the Satanic rituals of the Cainites, and thereby became perfectly possessed by demons which somehow corrupted their seed in some supernatural way? This notion is supported by the works of Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich

The Holy Bible says that "For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven" Matt 22:30.
This only says that Angels IN HEAVEN do not marry. I also know that Thomistic Metaphysics dictates that angels cannot procreate. But this still leaves holes in the story.

Also, in Numbers 13:33, when the Israelites approached the land of Canaan "There we saw certain monsters of the sons of Enac, of the giant kind: in comparison of whom, we seemed like locusts". Enac/Anak were a race of Nephilim. If the Deluge was GLOBAL (which I think it was), there were no descendants of Cain alive, so this cannot refer to mixed marriages theory again.

There are COUNTLESS verses and commentaries that prove/disprove either of the 3 theories. My question is this; I am inclined to believe either 2 or 3. Am I falling into some kind of heresy?

Ave Maria!

Scripture is often written in a spiritual context and thus can hold several Deep meanings other than those we can comprehend - be multi layered - be multi generational - and apply to several time frames in addition to the one it took place in - it can cross over from the physical to the spirititual and return and it is written by the infinite omnipotent Almighty GOD who has the ultimate overview. Hense , one of the reasons Jesus spoke in parables for example. Therefore - are these Biblical accounts a matter of Faith or a stumbling block for belief? Are competing theological theories becoming a contradiction? I can tell you that Scripture is not intended to damage ones faith - therefore - rather than embark on this qwest for knowledge - perhaps the prudent course of action is to read the theologians various opinions - and simply dont form one of your own.

Pax

Veritas et Aequitas · « **Reply #22 on:** March 14, 2012, 10:29:18 AM »

I find this topic very intriguing but can't find a good Catholic source that lends any clarification - particularly, who are "the Sons of God" vs. "the daughters of men." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Bp. Challoner was protected by infallibility. How is it that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6:4 are different from the "sons of God" in Job 1:6 and , if so, then which "sons of God" are being referenced in John 1:12?

I've found some Protestant authors/talk show hosts who have some interesting theories on this. They theorize that there is a connection with the "seed" in Genesis 3:15 and that Satan is attempting to corrupt the divine bloodline through genetic manipulation - that is very much a thumbnail sketch. If you have the patience, watch this whole video series

Here are a couple of other interesting ones -

Lastly, this video is a little off-topic. The subject matter is also intriguing to me though as it deals with the St. Malachy prophecy of the last pope. However, they begin discussing Malachi Martin and Windswept House around the 20min mark and make some very interesting allegations; not the least of which is that April 2012 will mark the end of BXVI and usher in "Petrus Romanus."

:tinfoil:

Elizabeth · « **Reply #23 on:** March 14, 2012, 12:21:47 PM »

Are these links suitable for children ? Thanks.

Veritas et Aequitas · « **Reply #24 on:** March 14, 2012, 01:37:06 PM »

Quote from: Elizabeth

Are these links suitable for children ? Thanks.

I guess that really depends on their age as well as how well grounded they are in The Faith. As I mentioned, this is by Protestant theologians and, while they don't directly attack the Catholic Church, they mention their doubts about the Fatima apparitions or refer to the 66 books of the Bible.

There is definitely nothing graphical/visual to worry about in any of them; however, there is some brief discussion of sex in regards to genetic manipulation - nothing too racy - except the last video link. That last video is the one that mentions doubts about the Blessed Mother's appearance at Fatima (although they believe in the cover up of the third secret), but also briefly talks about Malachi Martin and the conjecture surrounding alleged ceremonies that took place in the Vatican to enthrone Satan, which involved human sacrifice and ceremonial sex. If you want to hear the worst of that one, listen to the 22-35 minute part and slightly beyond that they air their grievances about the appearances of Mary.

The third link I posted has some very interesting discussion of mathematics that mentions the Corpus Christi painting by Salvador Dali, which I thought was pretty incredible (you need to watch 22min forward to get the whole gist).

While it's on my mind, here are two great ones for kids to watch:

I hope that helps.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 14, 2012, 02:11:53 PM »

Quote

I've found some Protestant authors/talk show hosts who have some interesting theories on this. They theorize that there is a connection with the "seed" in Genesis 3:15 and that Satan is attempting to corrupt the divine bloodline through genetic manipulation - that is very much a thumbnail sketch. If you have the patience, watch this whole video series

That is either a heresy or has heretical implications. Angels cannot mate with women, as has been pointed out, there is a little problem in that they don't have bodies. Also there are consequences to the concept of free will in all of this; if we are genetically manipulated how can we choose good or evil? Some of us are more predisposed to evil than others because we have alien DNA?

All of this Nephilim stuff is from the devil along with the David Icke reptilian business. All evil comes from humans under the MENTAL influence of Satan. The demons are clever enough to fool us without messing up our DNA.

s2srea · « **Reply #26 on:** March 15, 2012, 08:29:21 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

All evil comes from humans under the MENTAL influence of Satan. The demons are clever enough to fool us without messing up our DNA.

Exactly.

Haydock:

Quote

"Ver. 4. Giants. It is likely the generality of men before the flood were of a gigantic stature, in comparison with what men now are. But these here spoken of, are called giants, as being not only tall in stature, but violent and savage in their dispositions, and mere monsters of cruelty and lust. (Challoner) --- Yet we need not imagine, that they were such as the poets describe, tearing up mountains, and hurling them against heaven. Being offspring of men, who had lived hitherto with great temperance, but now gave full scope to their passions, and the love of the fair daughters whom they chose, we need not wonder that they should be amazingly strong and violent. Nephilim, rushing on, as Ag.[Aquila?] translates. That there have been giants of an unusual size, all historians testify. Og, Goliah, &c. are mentioned in Scripture, and the sons of Enac are represented as much above the common size, as the Hebrews were greater than grasshoppers, Numbers xiii. 34. If we should suppose they were four or five times our size, would that be more wonderful than that they should live nine or ten times as long as we do? See St. Augustine, City of God xv. 9, 23; Calmet's Dissert. &c. Delrio affirms, that in 1572 he saw at Rouen, a native of Piedmont, above nine feet high. (Haydock) --- Of old. The corruption of morals had commenced many ages ago, and some of the sons of Seth had given way to their lusts; so that we are not to suppose, that these giants were all born within a hundred years of the flood, as some might suppose from their being mentioned here, after specifying the age of Noe, chap. v. 31. (Haydock)"
http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id333.html

And, no, Haydock isn't protected by infallibility, but if you are at the point of questioning this sentence in the bible like that, I think you need to refocus your energy. There is no controversy, sorry. At least not amongst Catholic thought.

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #27 on:** March 15, 2012, 11:02:11 AM »

Maybe we should capture, bind, and examine Daegus and see if he has Nephalim blood. :wink:

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #28 on:** March 15, 2012, 09:31:06 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Samurai

Maybe we should capture, bind, and examine Daegus and see if he has Nephalim blood. :wink:

Or better yet, get him to start posting again.

Seriously, I miss his posts. Hopefully he will return one day.

Veritas et Aequitas · « **Reply #29 on:** March 16, 2012, 09:58:55 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

That is either a heresy or has heretical implications.

Well, Captain Obvious, I did mention it was a Protestant theory. You might consider though that Catholics and Protestants have more in common than not.

Quote from: Raoul76

Angels cannot mate with women, as has been pointed out, there is a little problem in that they don't have bodies. Also there are consequences to the concept of free will in all of this; if we are genetically manipulated how can we choose good or evil? Some of us are more predisposed to evil than others because we have alien DNA?

I'm not sure to what you are referring here, certainly not the post of mine you quoted. I'll have to go back and read the thread again.

Quote from: Raoul76

All of this Nephilim stuff is from the devil along with the David Icke reptilian business.

Is it the term "nephilim" that bothers you? Would "giants" be better? Do you deny that portion of the scripture that refers to giants? Is it really a fair comparison to put that in the same category as "the David Icke reptilian business?" I would urge you to choose your words more carefully and to consider revising your comments.

Quote from: Raoul76

All evil comes from humans under the MENTAL influence of Satan. The demons are clever enough to fool us without messing up our DNA.[emphasis mine]

So, true cases of demonic possession are just "MENTAL influences?" I would urge you to re-read your sig line and exercise a little humility. Tempering your comments with a bit of a more charitable tone wouldn't hurt either.