Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Maria Regina on December 16, 2018, 10:32:07 AM
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'Father, please stop': Parents horrified after priest used teen's funeral to condemn ѕυιcιdє
Katie Mettler, The Washington Post
Published 4:35 pm PST, Friday, December 14, 2018
When Maison Hullibarger died by ѕυιcιdє on Dec. 4, his parents - devout Catholics - began planning a funeral that would celebrate their 18-year-old son's life. ...
The Hullibargers were detailed, they said, and Father Don LaCuesta took notes.
"We wanted him to celebrate how Maison lived," Linda Hullibarger told the Detroit Free Press, "not how he died." ...
Of course, the archdiocese has denounced Father Don LaCuesta basically silencing him.
To read the complete WaPo article, please visit: https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Father-please-stop-Parents-horrified-after-13467977.php
I knew a priest who denounced ѕυιcιdє and at the funeral of a ѕυιcιdє he said that anyone who commits ѕυιcιdє puts their salvation at risk because by that final act, they have despaired and have failed to trust in God. Father denounced ѕυιcιdє very strongly at the funeral because several teenagers had called him and said that they were going to commit a group ѕυιcιdє in honor of the young man who had taken his life.
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The priest could not remain silent or he would be complicit in more deaths by ѕυιcιdє.
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He’s absolutely right, and someone has to start saying it. We are loosing to many lives to this horrible thing. It also doesn’t help that when they commit ѕυιcιdє the kids are views as some softness of martyrs in their community. Part of me questions his timing, but he had to say it. We need to start saving the children!
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Agreed. There have been a few ѕυιcιdєs in our local schools this past Fall. It's crazy. And folks are too quick to say...."well, he/she is in a better place now" or " he/she is no longer suffering", etc. etc.
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ѕυιcιdє is a sin against the Holy Ghost. The soul is damned eternally.
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He’s absolutely right, and someone has to start saying it. We are loosing to many lives to this horrible thing. It also doesn’t help that when they commit ѕυιcιdє the kids are views as some softness of martyrs in their community. Part of me questions his timing, but he had to say it. We need to start saving the children!
Viewed as some sort of martyr* sorry, I got distracted!
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I tried unsuccessfully to copy and paste excerpts from this article
http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2016/04/07/ѕυιcιdє-catholic-funerals/
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Why is this man presiding at a ѕυιcιdє's funeral?
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"He basically called our son a sinner," Linda told the Toledo Blade.
Sad story, but these parents are definitely not "devout Catholics".
Hats off to the priest. People are just not used to hearing the truth.
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I read this article yesterday and had a question: What role does medication play in mitigating the sinfulness of ѕυιcιdє?
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In a recent news story about a very young person who took their own life, it was noted that they were on prescription meds which had a listed side-effect of suicidal tendencies.
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"He basically called our son a sinner," Linda told the Toledo Blade.
Sad story, but these parents are definitely not "devout Catholics".
Hats off to the priest. People are just not used to hearing the truth.
Objectively speaking, they aren't even Catholic let alone "devout".
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I read this article yesterday and had a question: What role does medication play in mitigating the sinfulness of ѕυιcιdє?
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In a recent news story about a very young person who took their own life, it was noted that they were on prescription meds which had a listed side-effect of suicidal tendencies.
A person with mental illness who commits ѕυιcιdє, the mental illness mitigates the culpability for the sin. Also many time when someone who is hated by others commits ѕυιcιdє then those who drove him to it share in the culpability for the sin. I we should pray for the repose of his soul.
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A person with mental illness who commits ѕυιcιdє, the mental illness mitigates the culpability for the sin.
Wrong. Define "mental illness", and who gets to "diagnose" the "mental illness"? Most of the "mental illnesses" are false constructs to excuse behavior and enslave people to a pill and get them data-mined on a state registry so their liberties, such as exercising the 2nd Amendment, are prohibited.
ѕυιcιdє is a sin against the Holy Ghost. The person suffers eternal perdition.
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Poche, a person can suffer from depression or anxiety. The problem comes in when they doubt God, and his infinite love for them. Sucide is doubting Gods love for you!
Also, some mental illness, not all, are a problem of chemical imbalance, poor diet, and no true faith that God forgives you (after you’ve gone to confession of course) for the sins you committed. The world is so
without Gods love, and comfort they turn their back on him by committing such a horrible selfish act. Everyone in this world needs a dose of sanctifying grace!
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I read this article yesterday and had a question: What role does medication play in mitigating the sinfulness of ѕυιcιdє?
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In a recent news story about a very young person who took their own life, it was noted that they were on prescription meds which had a listed side-effect of suicidal tendencies.
People should avoid all psyche meds. They do far more harm than any good. They alter brain chemistry for the worse. They create an artificial dopamine hit. Instead of experiencing rise and fall of dopamine that's commensurate with whether people are succeeding or failing at life, they have anti-depressants to shield them. They have no true perspective on where they are in life in terms of their success or failure. They have no real navigation system.
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When I first read the title of this thread, I thought it said; NO priest commits ѕυιcιdє at funeral.
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When I first read the title of this thread, I thought it said; NO priest commits ѕυιcιdє at funeral.
This would not surprise me at all.
There have been several ѕυιcιdєs (I lost count) committed by N.O. priests after they have been accused of sɛҳuąƖ abuse of boys or girls, drug running, embezzlement of church funds, and/or gun running. Without the true faith, these novus ordo priests are doing reprehensible things, and then they take the coward's way out by ѕυιcιdє when caught for the crimes they have committed.
Lord have mercy and save us.
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Apparently it was all a fraud the NO priest said God forgives even ѕυιcιdє.
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Wrong. Define "mental illness", and who gets to "diagnose" the "mental illness"? Most of the "mental illnesses" are false constructs to excuse behavior and enslave people to a pill and get them data-mined on a state registry so their liberties, such as exercising the 2nd Amendment, are prohibited.
ѕυιcιdє is a sin against the Holy Ghost. The person suffers eternal perdition.
It is God who decides what mitigation if any comes from the mental illness of a ѕυιcιdє. Another thing is that if the ѕυιcιdє comes because of the hatred of others then those others also share in the culpability for the ѕυιcιdє.
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Apparently it was all a fraud the NO priest said God forgives even ѕυιcιdє.
There was an incident where it is recorded that St John Vianney stated that God had accepted the contrition of someone who committed ѕυιcιdє.
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Apparently it was all a fraud [that?] the NO priest said God forgives even ѕυιcιdє.
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Since even poche forgives ѕυιcιdє, what else matters?
Most people who kill themselves think it's no big deal and God will forgive them. (BTW that's presumption, a cardinal sin.)
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Another thing is that if the ѕυιcιdє comes because of the hatred of others then those others also share in the culpability for the ѕυιcιdє.
Maybe, maybe not. No one can blame a mortal sin on the actions of others. God gives to all of us the actual graces to resist sin, no matter the external pressures.
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A person I know was being medicated for depression and suicidal thoughts. After conversion to tradition and learning that ѕυιcιdє leads to Hell they no longer consider ѕυιcιdє an option. Though still taking meds for depression, the temptation towards ѕυιcιdє has been removed due to the understanding of church teaching. I think the renewal of teaching on the subject may save other lives as well.
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Surprised that people argued against what poche said.
A mortal sin requires three elements: grave matter, sufficient knowledge, and full consent of the will. ѕυιcιdє is grave matter, sure, and that's why traditionally ѕυιcιdєs were not buried in church cemeteries. But the other two, we don't know. God may have granted a change of will in view of our later prayers.
And from catechism, there are several ways to cooperate in the sin of another: counsel, command, consent, concealment, provocation, praise, participation, silence, and defense. If someone is driven to ѕυιcιdє by harassment, the harassers could very well participate by provocation, and possibly other ways.
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If ѕυιcιdє is "mitigated" due to mental illness, then exactly what ѕυιcιdє is not mitigated? Do we really believe that a sane person would take his own life?
And if all ѕυιcιdєs are due to mental illness and therefore should be mitigated, then doesn't that also mean that the Catholic Church taught error for hundreds of years?
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ѕυιcιdє is a weak, cowardly, faithless and selfish act.
Jєω TV, music industry and social media glamorizes it by appealing to the narcissism and attention-seeking of youth and adults with arrested development of their Affective Domain, and it's targeted especially at white people.
The Jєω wants you dead.
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Surprised that people argued against what poche said.
... But the other two, (sufficient knowledge, and full consent of the will) we don't know. God may have granted a change of will in view of our later prayers.
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God does not change our will. Our will is our own and ours alone. We are the only ones who can operate it. It's called Free Will, and is a tenet of the Catholic Faith. God does not take back His gifts.
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And how could you ѕυιcιdє without sufficient knowledge. Would you ask yourself "Will this action cause my death. I think I'll give it a try?"
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What Pax said is correct. God does not give us more than we are able to bear. As Catholics we must believe and remember this.
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Surprised that people argued against what poche said.
A mortal sin requires three elements: grave matter, sufficient knowledge, and full consent of the will. ѕυιcιdє is grave matter, sure, and that's why traditionally ѕυιcιdєs were not buried in church cemeteries. But the other two, we don't know. God may have granted a change of will in view of our later prayers.
And from catechism, there are several ways to cooperate in the sin of another: counsel, command, consent, concealment, provocation, praise, participation, silence, and defense. If someone is driven to ѕυιcιdє by harassment, the harassers could very well participate by provocation, and possibly other ways.
It’s not an unknown fact in the world that ѕυιcιdє is a sin. It’s been taught that for years, and was even illegal at one point.
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My cousin committed ѕυιcιdє but mental health was an issue. Apparently he had multiple concussions from sports in high school and it made him have a lot of mental health issues. So his brain was sent of to a university for testing and he did have severe CTE. I do not know how real CTE is but I have not heard anyone claiming it does not exist. My sspx priest told me I could go to his novus ordo funeral, I told him what I knew at the time, which was that he had concussions and that was the suspected cause of his mental health issues. He grew up in a upper middle class household, going to expensive private novus ordo schools, and lived a normal life. Most likely he never returned to the faith, never giving a confession before he died. I most likely assume he had premarital sex etc, but he was a baptized catholic, who killed himself but what fault was truly his?...
I am totally against ѕυιcιdє, I would bet my life savings he is not in heaven, but I do not know for sure. ѕυιcιdє in the modern age is very tricky and complicated.
So long story short, I went to his funeral, which had over a thousand people attend (his father had a lot of business associates). There were 3 or 4 novus ordo priests at the "service"; at the "sermon" the "priest" said my cousin was in heaven and he had left his pain in this world. He said he was in heaven multiple times. We left the service and waited until the end to go the a luncheon at he church.
Did I do the right thing? I do not know, my priest told me I could go, and I do not know for a certainty he was not insane, or not in sanctifying grace.
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I think a person who has no faith, if he has CTE, on reading this, https://www.protectthebrain.org/Brain-Injury-Research/What-is-CTE-.asp
Would be sorely tempted to commit ѕυιcιdє, Especially in a world where perfect health, beauty, sporting prowess, intelligence etc are the non-plus-ultra which must be attained, and there are no other values worth seeking after, like unity with God.
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THey are certainly not thinking for Eternity.
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THis is what it sounds like in the case you mentioned tdrev. Another factor, I think, is that parents don't raise their kids by preparing them for the hard knocks, so when the hard knocks come, and they do, the kids are traumatised by them and don!t cope well.
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Since even poche forgives ѕυιcιdє, what else matters?
Most people who kill themselves think it's no big deal and God will forgive them. (BTW that's presumption, a cardinal sin.)
I do not forgive ѕυιcιdє. Only God can forgive sins. There is anecdotal evidence that God may have accepted the contrition of those who committed ѕυιcιdє. But who are those whose contrition that god accepts and those who God rejects? Without a special revelation from God we can only conjecture. maybe we would be right, but then maybe we would be wrong. In this case I think it would be best to pray for the eternal repose of their souls and leave the rest in the hands of God. Remember, one day we will all die and have to stand before the judgement seat of God. will we be saved? Or will we be lost? maybe we will need to spend time in Purgatory. In this case because I would like for others to pray for me I pray for them that God's judgement of them be a merciful one and that their time in Purgatory be a short one, just as I would like for my time in Purgatory to be a short one also.
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Maybe, maybe not. No one can blame a mortal sin on the actions of others. God gives to all of us the actual graces to resist sin, no matter the external pressures.
If you induce someone to sin then you share in their culpability.
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If ѕυιcιdє is "mitigated" due to mental illness, then exactly what ѕυιcιdє is not mitigated? Do we really believe that a sane person would take his own life?
And if all ѕυιcιdєs are due to mental illness and therefore should be mitigated, then doesn't that also mean that the Catholic Church taught error for hundreds of years?
The Catholic church has never taught error. What happens sometimes is that She will recognize the mitigating circuмstances that may have an effect on the culpability on what is the grave matter that makes for a mortal sin.
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The Catholic church has never taught error. What happens sometimes is that She will recognize the mitigating circuмstances that may have an effect on the culpability on what is the grave matter that makes for a mortal sin.
So was the Church in error all those centuries in which her official stance was to prohibit funerals and burials of individuals who committed ѕυιcιdє because it was generally believed that those souls are in Hell?
Why the change in recent years?
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And the simple reason why ѕυιcιdєs go to Hell is because ѕυιcιdє is a most grievous mortal sin against the Holy Ghost which cannot be repented.
Where do souls, who are in the state of mortal sin at the time of death, go?
St. Thomas on Whether it is lawful to kill oneself?
It is altogether unlawful to kill oneself, for three reasons. First, because everything naturally (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm) loves itself, the result being that everything naturally (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm) keeps itself in being, and resists corruptions so far as it can. Wherefore ѕυιcιdє is contrary to the inclination of nature (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm), and to charity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) whereby every man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) should love himself. Hence ѕυιcιdє is always a mortal sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), as being contrary to the natural law (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09076a.htm) and to charity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm). Secondly, because every part, as such, belongs to the whole. Now every man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) is part of the community, and so, as such, he belongs to the community. Hence by killing himself he injures the community, as the Philosopher (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01713a.htm) declares (Ethic. v, 11). Thirdly, because life is God's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) gift (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06553a.htm) to man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm), and is subject to His power, Who kills and makes to live. Hence whoever takes his own life, sins (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) against God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), even as he who kills another's slave (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm), sins (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) against that slave's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm) master, and as he who usurps to himself judgment of a matter (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10053b.htm) not entrusted to him. For it belongs to God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) alone to pronounce sentence of death and life, according to Deuteronomy 32:39 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/deu032.htm#verse39), "I will kill and I will make to live."
So why did the Church not make any exceptions for alleged "mental illness" until just recently?
It seems that just about every single depravity and atrocity nowadays can be explained as a case of "mental illness". Sodomites, transgenders and rapists are examples of mentally ill people. Do their sin is somehow lessened because of their deranged mental condition?
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The Catholic church has never taught error. What happens sometimes is that She will recognize the mitigating circuмstances that may have an effect on the culpability on what is the grave matter that makes for a mortal sin.
Yes, for the sins that can be confessed and atoned for. From what we know, a ѕυιcιdє does not die in the state of sanctifying grace.
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My cousin committed ѕυιcιdє but mental health was an issue. Apparently he had multiple concussions from sports in high school and it made him have a lot of mental health issues. So his brain was sent of to a university for testing and he did have severe CTE. I do not know how real CTE is but I have not heard anyone claiming it does not exist. My sspx priest told me I could go to his novus ordo funeral, I told him what I knew at the time, which was that he had concussions and that was the suspected cause of his mental health issues. He grew up in a upper middle class household, going to expensive private novus ordo schools, and lived a normal life. Most likely he never returned to the faith, never giving a confession before he died. I most likely assume he had premarital sex etc, but he was a baptized catholic, who killed himself but what fault was truly his?...
I am totally against ѕυιcιdє, I would bet my life savings he is not in heaven, but I do not know for sure. ѕυιcιdє in the modern age is very tricky and complicated.
So long story short, I went to his funeral, which had over a thousand people attend (his father had a lot of business associates). There were 3 or 4 novus ordo priests at the "service"; at the "sermon" the "priest" said my cousin was in heaven and he had left his pain in this world. He said he was in heaven multiple times. We left the service and waited until the end to go the a luncheon at he church.
Did I do the right thing? I do not know, my priest told me I could go, and I do not know for a certainty he was not insane, or not in sanctifying grace.
I think you did the right thing to go to his funeral. I think the right thing would be to pray for the repose of his soul.
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So was the Church in error all those centuries in which her official stance was to prohibit funerals and burials of individuals who committed ѕυιcιdє because it was generally believed that those souls are in Hell?
Why the change in recent years?
It has to do with scientific development. In the past mental illness was considered to be a moral defect. Today with the development of scientific capabilities we understand things differently than we did years ago. There have been discoveries of mental defects related to physical abnormalities in the brain itself that correspond to one another.
Canon Law has also recognized that an adult could through no fault of their won not have the full use of their mental faculties and makes allowances for these situations.
A good example of how science is developed is in the use of cigarettes. there was a time when the doctor might prescribe a certain type of cigarette for some one with a cough. It is the same thing with mental illness. Someone who may be afflicted with thil illness might be very confused or depressed.
This does not do away with the moral Law of God. But it does recognize that there may be mitigating circuмstances which might affect the culpability for certain acts, like ѕυιcιdє.
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I think a person who has no faith, if he has CTE, on reading this, https://www.protectthebrain.org/Brain-Injury-Research/What-is-CTE-.asp
Would be sorely tempted to commit ѕυιcιdє, Especially in a world where perfect health, beauty, sporting prowess, intelligence etc are the non-plus-ultra which must be attained, and there are no other values worth seeking after, like unity with God.
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THey are certainly not thinking for Eternity.
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THis is what it sounds like in the case you mentioned tdrev. Another factor, I think, is that parents don't raise their kids by preparing them for the hard knocks, so when the hard knocks come, and they do, the kids are traumatised by them and don!t cope well.
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Once upon a time some years ago the doctor would have brought in some rattles to try to cure you of that nasty cold you had. Another time the doctor would have prescribed cigarettes for your cough.
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I grieve and feel offended whenever someone says that "N" who recently died without going to confession beforehand is in heaven.
We do not know for sure what the state of a soul is before they die. All we can do is trust in God.
I have read several books on Purgatory published by Tan Books. Nuns and priests who have died have visited people they knew and have begged for prayers saying that they are in the deepest part of purgatory and suffer greatly.
The best thing we can do is to pray for the dead that they may be forgiven and be able to enter Heaven with the elect.
If we have lost both parents, as I have, we honor them by praying for them.
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Once upon a time some years ago the doctor would have brought in some rattles to try to cure you of that nasty cold you had. Another time the doctor would have prescribed cigarettes for your cough.
What on earth are you rambling on about? :fryingpan:
Whatever it is, it is totally unrelated to anything I have said in my post.
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A person I know was being medicated for depression and suicidal thoughts. After conversion to tradition and learning that ѕυιcιdє leads to Hell they no longer consider ѕυιcιdє an option. Though still taking meds for depression, the temptation towards ѕυιcιdє has been removed due to the understanding of church teaching. I think the renewal of teaching on the subject may save other lives as well.
I've known more than one person who has not committed ѕυιcιdє just for the fact it'll end badly (Hell).
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I've known more than one person who has not committed ѕυιcιdє just for the fact it'll end badly (Hell).
Antipsychotic drugs given for depression cause depression and suicidal thoughts. Read the list of side effects of these drugs.
Even if a person knows that ѕυιcιdє leads to hell, their thinking can be distorted by these satanic psychoactive drugs that fossilize the pineal gland, the center of our brain that enables us to pray and to have communion with God. Look at the dangerous chemicals in our pharmacies. Even antibiotics, like Cipro and Xithromax, contain fluoride, which is one of the most dangerous chemicals on earth.
Why else did Japan and Germany fluoridate the water during WWII? Why did Obama force all major U.S. cities across the USA to begin fluoridation? Water fluoridation causes people to become compliant like sheep. It causes people to lose the ability to discern or to think rationally. Look at the numbers of people throughout the USA who have abandoned the faith. Fluoride causes people to lose the faith.
With increasing numbers of fluoridated drugs on the market, and with perhaps more than 70 percent of the drugs in the pharmacy containing fluoride, we are all at risk whenever we visit an M.D. because our medical doctors have become drug pushers for Big Pharma.
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ѕυιcιdє is a sin against the Holy Ghost. The person suffers eternal perdition.
ѕυιcιdє is OBJECTIVELY a sin against the Holy Ghost. And the Church presumes, in the external forum, that the soul has been lost. But there are other requirements for mortal sin in addition to grave matter, and psychological illness could possibly have mitigated his culpability.
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ѕυιcιdє is OBJECTIVELY a sin against the Holy Ghost. And the Church presumes, in the external forum, that the soul has been lost. But there are other requirements for mortal sin in addition to grave matter, and psychological illness could possibly have mitigated his culpability.
Not a psychological illness, but a neurological disorder would mitigate culpability.
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If ѕυιcιdє is "mitigated" due to mental illness, then exactly what ѕυιcιdє is not mitigated? Do we really believe that a sane person would take his own life?
And if all ѕυιcιdєs are due to mental illness and therefore should be mitigated, then doesn't that also mean that the Catholic Church taught error for hundreds of years?
Who said that "all" ѕυιcιdєs are mitigated by mental illness? There has to be a degree of metal illness that compromises freedom of the will. One could be mentally ill and, yet, at the same time have sufficient consent of the will to render the act a moral sin. Sane, in the sense of having enough grasp of their faculties to commit grave sin, do indeed commit ѕυιcιdє all the time ... and end up in hell.
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There were 3 or 4 novus ordo priests at the "service"; at the "sermon" the "priest" said my cousin was in heaven and he had left his pain in this world. He said he was in heaven multiple times.
The "priest" committed a grave sin. How many other people who find life unbearable might be tempted to end the suffering so they too could "go to heaven." Conversely, how many people there have been who would otherwise have committed ѕυιcιdє were it not for the strong teaching of the Church against it.
I don't think you should have gone ... except, ironically, because the Church merely forbids any Catholic burial, and not all types of prayer services, and it's arguable whether the Novus Ordo celebration in any way constitutes a Catholic burial. There's no Church law forbidding holding a wake, for instance, for a ѕυιcιdє. And one might liken the Novus Ordo festivities to an informal wake of some kind.
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Not a psychological illness, but a neurological disorder would mitigate culpability.
Majority of psychological illnesses are false constructs and notions by Jєωry who claim title as assessors to the world's "reality". The psych illnesses that due exist have sin and pride at its root. If ѕυιcιdє is a result of these psych illnesses, the souls are damned eternally for sinning against the Holy Ghost.
Neurological disorders do mitigate culpability. There's a difference between neurological and psychological.
Very few cases are neurological.