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Author Topic: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge  (Read 14566 times)

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Offline klasG4e

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Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2018, 07:16:11 PM »
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  • Apollo 11 Press Conference (aka: The Three Deer Caught in the Headlights)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #31 on: May 14, 2018, 07:35:47 PM »
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  • Quote
    There is no reasonto go back. If you do something like that once, what's the reason to go back? It's not like there's any practical reason to do it other than as a giant vanity project. 
    No practical reason to go back?  Haha, do you live under a rock?  NASA makes a big deal about exploring mars and you don’t think that a space station/city on the moon would be a good “half way” point to explore mars, instead of going all the way back to earth every time?  In 70 years we’ve gone from black-n-white tube tv technology to HD cell phones where a 10 yr old can film a movie from the palm of his hand...and there’s no space station where hundreds/thousands of people are living, training and studying space?

    Again, I don’t believe we went to the moon or anywhere close, but if you believe it, then it makes no sense why a govt agency, with TRILLIONS of dollars and the brightest minds, after 70 years, has done nothing but send satellites to space.  It’s laughable.  I’d feel better if I found out the $ was wasted on cocaine and prostitutes in some massive scandal. At least THAT would explain the lack of results.  


    Offline noOneImportant

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #32 on: May 14, 2018, 07:46:22 PM »
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  • Relatively serious efforts to send a manned expedition to Mars are a pretty recent thing. NASA has done many, many things with all that money in the last 50+ years. Among them unmanned probes to Mars, deep space probes which just shoot off until they are out of range (sending back data in the meantime), building a space station (which is your "halfway house" you want to put on the moon. It's easier and more practical to put it in orbit for a variety of reasons)... Heck the European equivalent landed a probe on a comet, which is a mindbogglingly impressive feat. Oh there's also the Hubble telescope and other things like it. Again, they probably could've stuck it on the moon, but it's easier to maintain if you have it in low orbit, and it achieves the same effect (getting above the atmosphere for clearer vision).

    So to say NASA has done nothing with all that money is patently false. Whether or not that was a good use of trillions of dollars is a different question entirely.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #33 on: May 14, 2018, 08:20:25 PM »
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  • Exactly.  Makes no sense.  I love space movies even though they're fake; that's what the moon landing was - a movie.  
    A movie directed by Stanley Kubrick. 

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #34 on: May 14, 2018, 11:43:50 PM »
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  • 4. Some people believe that the Apollo moon landings were a hoax because astronauts would have
    been instantly killed in the radiation belts. According to the US Occupation Safety and Health Agency (OSHA) a lethal radiation dosage is 300 Rads in one hour. What is your answer to the 'moon landing hoax' believers?

    Note: According to radiation dosimeters carried by Apollo astronauts, their total dosage for the entire trip to the moon and return was not more than 2 Rads over 6 days

    But to the question of the impossibility of humans surviving a pass throught the Van Allen Belts, is the following not a good explanation?

    Hahaha you gotta be kidding. You call that a rebuttal?

    Sure, 300 rads/hour is probably lethal. I'll concede that point. But how do we know how much radiation is REALLY in the Van Allen belt? The next sentence "Note: during the (disputed) Apollo missions, their total dosage..." that's a logical fallacy, I don't know the exact name (perhaps begging the question? circular reasoning?) but I know it's ridiculous.

    Matthew: I am king
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    The fact is that ALL COUNTRIES have avoided the Van Allen belts like the plague OFFICIALLY for almost 50 years -- and probably longer than that in actuality. Why? They have no good reason.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #35 on: May 14, 2018, 11:50:39 PM »
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  • No practical reason to go back?  Haha, do you live under a rock?  NASA makes a big deal about exploring mars and you don’t think that a space station/city on the moon would be a good “half way” point to explore mars, instead of going all the way back to earth every time?  In 70 years we’ve gone from black-n-white tube tv technology to HD cell phones where a 10 yr old can film a movie from the palm of his hand...and there’s no space station where hundreds/thousands of people are living, training and studying space?

    Again, I don’t believe we went to the moon or anywhere close, but if you believe it, then it makes no sense why a govt agency, with TRILLIONS of dollars and the brightest minds, after 70 years, has done nothing but send satellites to space.  It’s laughable.  I’d feel better if I found out the $ was wasted on cocaine and prostitutes in some massive scandal. At least THAT would explain the lack of results.  
    This.

    If human space travel beyond the Van Allen belts were possible, we'd at least have space stations a bit further away than Low Earth Orbit -- just for baby practice if nothing else. Remember, once a rocket escapes Earth's gravity, it will keep going indefinitely without reverse thrusters of some kind. It's not like there's air or drag in space. So it wouldn't take super big rockets or anything to build a space station, say, 1/4 or even 1/2 of the way to the Moon. Why are we treating the Van Allen Belt like "There Be Monsters Here" from the middle ages? No one will so much as dip their big toe in this radiation belt.

    Again: WHY?
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #36 on: May 14, 2018, 11:52:36 PM »
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  • NASA has done many, many things with all that money in the last 50+ years. Among them unmanned probes to Mars, deep space probes which just shoot off until they are out of range (sending back data in the meantime), building a space station (which is your "halfway house" you want to put on the moon. It's easier and more practical to put it in orbit for a variety of reasons)... Heck the European equivalent landed a probe on a comet, which is a mindbogglingly impressive feat. Oh there's also the Hubble telescope and other things like it. Again, they probably could've stuck it on the moon, but it's easier to maintain if you have it in low orbit, and it achieves the same effect (getting above the atmosphere for clearer vision).

    I notice none of those things involve humans going beyond the Van Allen belt. How convenient.
    Too bad the claim isn't that we sent robots to the Moon for the Apollo missions...
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    Offline noOneImportant

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #37 on: May 15, 2018, 12:43:10 AM »
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  • To avoid being needlessly confrontational, I will also note that the comment you quoted was in response to the claim that NASA hasn't done anything with their trillions, so I listed a bunch of things, none of which have anything to do with manned moon travel. There is NO REASON to go to the moon unless you're completing a vanity project (which there is no real point in repeating), or are establishing a base of some sort there. There is no good reason to establish a base there currently, since low earth orbit works much, much better if you want a base to serve as a "launchpad". I could see them wanting to put a base on the moon as practice for a Mars habitat, assuming they ever get that far, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

    Note I haven't said anything about Van Allen belts. As I said, there are reasonable arguments to be made (and that's one of them). I disagree with you, but if you want to make that argument at least you have a leg to stand on.


    Offline rum

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #38 on: May 15, 2018, 07:34:58 AM »
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  • Hahaha you gotta be kidding. You call that a rebuttal?

    Sure, 300 rads/hour is probably lethal. I'll concede that point. But how do we know how much radiation is REALLY in the Van Allen belt? The next sentence "Note: during the (disputed) Apollo missions, their total dosage..." that's a logical fallacy, I don't know the exact name (perhaps begging the question? circular reasoning?) but I know it's ridiculous.

    Matthew: I am king
    Joe: No you are not!
    Matthew: Yes, I am king. Because I just issued a royal decree and I can't issue a royal decree without being king, now, can I?

    The fact is that ALL COUNTRIES have avoided the Van Allen belts like the plague OFFICIALLY for almost 50 years -- and probably longer than that in actuality. Why? They have no good reason.
    You dispute that multiple probes, starting in 1958 with Explorer 1, have measured the level of radiation in the belts?
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline rum

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #39 on: May 15, 2018, 07:50:13 AM »
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  • It's odd that I'm getting thumbs down for questions. It reminds me of the curse of ham thread.

    I simply don't know yet whether the moon landings happened. It's a fact-finding thread.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #40 on: May 15, 2018, 08:39:44 AM »
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  • I just looked at both your links. The link about Von Braun saying we would need a rocket the span of the empire state building to get straight to the moon ...

    Yes, the amount of fuel required to achieve escape velocity from the earth would not have fit on any rocket that we had at the time.  These guys went into low earth orbit, went around for a few days, sending fake telemetry back to Mission Control, and some pre-taped videos ... and then came back down.  There's no doubt about it.


    Offline rum

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #41 on: May 15, 2018, 03:57:38 PM »
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  • Yes, the amount of fuel required to achieve escape velocity from the earth would not have fit on any rocket that we had at the time.  These guys went into low earth orbit, went around for a few days, sending fake telemetry back to Mission Control, and some pre-taped videos ... and then came back down.  There's no doubt about it.
    Yes, but that was a rocket needed to fly straight to the moon. The Apollo missions didn't fly straight to the moon. Later eor and lor were developed as alternatives. Do you think it not possible that lor could have worked for Apollo?

    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.

    Offline noOneImportant

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #42 on: May 15, 2018, 05:10:08 PM »
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  • Yes, the amount of fuel required to achieve escape velocity from the earth would not have fit on any rocket that we had at the time.  These guys went into low earth orbit, went around for a few days, sending fake telemetry back to Mission Control, and some pre-taped videos ... and then came back down.  There's no doubt about it.
    This is outside my area of engineering, so I'm far from an expert, but it's possible that the statements about the size of the rocket needed were with reference to the known methods at the time, and advances changed that. The easy one that gets you part of the way there is better fuel with better power/weight ration, but things like multiple stage rockets and possibly using "slingshot" effects of orbital dynamics could also have been developed afterwards. I admit I am speculating here, but those are the first things that come to mind if I look for an explanation.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #43 on: May 15, 2018, 06:46:40 PM »
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  • Apollo 11 Press Conference (aka: The Three Deer Caught in the Headlights)


    If Armstrong had done what he claimed to have done his hero status would have been far greater than that of Charles Lindbergh.  He'd probably be on par with Christopher Colombus.  But instead of one of mankind's greatest cult heros, he acts like the cat who ate the canary or the schoolboy called to the principal's office.  His emotions seem so flat as if he had been given some tranquilizing drug to help him lie with a straight face.

    Too bad we couldn't have subjected all three of these individuals to the best polygraph experts in the country.  Not that the results would necessarily be perfect, but I bet they would be fairlly interesting.

    You can only wonder why this "incredible hero"  goes off into semi-oblivion as a semi-recluse on a farm in Ohio.   Aside from all the other major problems in trying to prove a manned moon landing, just the human element alone seems so highly questionable.  And, of course, you may have seen the extreme negative reaction (and downright refusal) of these and other moon astronauts when asked to swear on a bible that they had landed on the moon.  Not a pretty sight!

    Offline rum

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    Re: Moon Landings - No Hard Science Knowledge
    « Reply #44 on: May 15, 2018, 07:52:23 PM »
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  • If Armstrong had done what he claimed to have done his hero status would have been far greater than that of Charles Lindbergh.  He'd probably be on par with Christopher Colombus.  But instead of one of mankind's greatest cult heros, he acts like the cat who ate the canary or the schoolboy called to the principal's office.  His emotions seem so flat as if he had been given some tranquilizing drug to help him lie with a straight face.

    Too bad we couldn't have subjected all three of these individuals to the best polygraph experts in the country.  Not that the results would necessarily be perfect, but I bet they would be fairlly interesting.

    You can only wonder why this "incredible hero"  goes off into semi-oblivion as a semi-recluse on a farm in Ohio.   Aside from all the other major problems in trying to prove a manned moon landing, just the human element alone seems so highly questionable.  And, of course, you may have seen the extreme negative reaction (and downright refusal) of these and other moon astronauts when asked to swear on a bible that they had landed on the moon.  Not a pretty sight!
    I've seen this video before. While the behavior exhibited is a bit strange it doesn't make me conclude that something nefarious is going on.
    I've seen the Bart Sibrel video many times. Some of the astronauts do swear on the bible, mainly the ones he's able to get to do sit-down interviews with him. The astronauts he chases after refuse to do so, likely peeved by his gonzo approach.
    Some would have people believe that I'm a deceiver because I've used various handles on different Catholic forums. They only know this because I've always offered such information, unprompted. Various troll accounts on FE. Ben on SuscipeDomine. Patches on ABLF 1.0 and TeDeum. GuitarPlucker, Busillis, HatchC, and Rum on Cathinfo.