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Offline Matthew

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Moon landings a hoax?
« on: March 13, 2014, 11:53:36 PM »
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  • [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/q7pzg9xpAOE[/youtube]
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #1 on: March 14, 2014, 03:39:04 AM »
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  • .

    The video has many interesting themes, but most of them are cut short, as if this is a teaser version of a much more detailed and longer version that shows the "rest of the story" for most of the segments.  For example, the daughter of James Van Allen is in the middle of describing her father's trip to Russia when the interview with her abruptly ends with her childhood sense of the Cold War "not being so cold."  

    It would be nice to have more background behind the claims that modern space flights are hampered by the Van Allen Belts problem.  I have heard these assertions but where is the "official" version? Is there that much of an information suppression that no one in any position of current active projects is willing to make any public statement that our present-day astronauts cannot penetrate the Van Allen Belts because the X-rays generated, by the particles inherent in the Belts coming in contact with the metallic spacecraft surfaces, would have a lethal intensity of radiation?

    The testimony of one man in the second half (his name was not shown written) that during the Fukushima nuclear catastrophe, he contacted the manufacturers of space suits used in the Space Program (NASA) asking if their suits could be used at Fukushima, is most revealing.  He says they all told him the space suits have absolutely NO protection against radiation built in to them, and that they highly recommended AGAINST using such suits at Fukushima, or at any other nuclear radiation sites.  

    Nowhere in this video do they mention the fact that in all hospitals today, X-ray rooms and radiology specifications for walls and employees' safety entail the use of lead sheets of various thickness.  An X-ray tech, whose job it is to shoot images of patients who are generally lying on a table, before the camera is powered up, must go stand behind a protective wall that has a lead sheet surface (generally covered by paint so the lead is not visible as lead).  The entrance door to the X-ray room has a layer of lead about 0.125" thick (1/8th inch), just as all the walls, floor and ceiling of the rooms do, meaning that a door 3'-6" wide and 7' tall will weigh an EXTRA 176 pounds (lead weighs 0.4 #/cu.in.), due to the lead layer covering its surface on one side. If you have ever pushed one of those X-ray room doors open or closed, you would have noticed it has a reluctance to move, and that is due to its mass, or weight, and its consequent inertia.  The hinges, for example, of such doors must be double ball bearing hinges with oversized screws. and a reinforced jamb and even a stronger wall is necessary in order to hold the additional weight of the door.  

    A space suit would therefore have about that much more weight (or mass in weightless environment), and would be so much less maneuverable, due to the extra mass of any lead layer to protect the person wearing it. How to make such a layer flexible is a whole different problem.

    I have never heard of any space suits that have a lead layer to shield the wearer from radiation.  Such a thing would be enormously cuмbersome, and difficult to use.  And I have heard mention of how spacecraft would weigh considerably more with such a layer, perhaps about 40% more.  The additional cost of rocket fuel and reduction in payload would be enormous, since (as one man in this video says) you get less than twice the additional payload from an increase of twice the rocket fuel. (The dead weight of the initial fuel load is counted as "payload" for the launch itself).

    Therefore, all the various images we see of astronauts doing "space walks" around the Shuttle or Space Station (the Oscar-nominated "Gravity" for example), are showing space suits with absolutely zero protection for radiation.  Therefore, any such activity would have to take place BELOW the Van Allen Belts.  Traveling to the moon requires passing THROUGH and going BEYOND the Van Allen Belts.  To do so, would mean any human being without any radiation protection -- meaning enormous lead shielding (unless there is some other means!) -- would be FRIED to a CRISP, and return as a "crispy critter" (I have a friend who is an X-ray tech and that's his term for victims of car fires whose remains he has to X-ray for forensic research and docuмentation.)  In the military, they say, "You would be toast."


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #2 on: March 14, 2014, 03:59:21 AM »
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    I have a problem with the title of the video, "Science proves that NASA faked the moon landing," because "science" does not really "prove" anything.  

    All science does is provide evidence, which can be used to support or question an hypothesis.  So it is not proper to say that science proves the landings were faked, but rather it should say that science shows strong evidence in support of the theory that the moon landings were faked.  

    An hypothesis becomes a theory when there is data found, repeatedly, especially over a large amount of time, that consistently supports the hypothesis, and insufficient data is found that does not support it.  Data becomes insufficient when it is shown to be improperly collected or unreliable, or faked, or the product of suspicious or questionable sources.

    One of the elements that contributes to the unreliability of the moon landings having been real, is the historical fact that anyone who has come out making public statements to the contrary, even if they have been people of means and position, have turned up mysteriously dead.  This is mentioned several times in this video.  

    Therefore, this video is likely to not be found active very long on YouTube.  

    Watch it while it's still available, and before they kill you!  


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    Offline ggreg

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #3 on: March 14, 2014, 07:01:30 AM »
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  • They have those lead shields in hospitals for the staff you idiot because they would be exposed day after day for years and it might, marginally, increase their chance of cancer.  Then they would sue the hospital.

    The hospital are scared of the lawyers and need to show they took precautions.  Lead is cheap so they line everything in the room with it.

    So, just how bad was the radiation measured there?  Well, it wasn’t something to dismiss (and was academically quite interesting), but it also wasn’t something that would strike fear into the hearts of mission planners:

    Peak radiation exposure while traveling through the inner, more powerful belt reached 13,000 millirem per hour, (or 13 rem per hour).  So, if an astronaut were to park in worst part of the inner Van Allen belt for an hour with no shielding, he or she would receive a radiation dose nearly three times the annual “safe” dose for DOE workers and may have bumped up their lifetime risk of a fatal cancer by a percentage point.

    Fortunately, however, the time the Apollo astronauts spent traveling through the highest radiation zone of the inner Van Allen belt (at a screaming 11,000+ miles per hr) was fractional – their doses averaged 120 millirem per day.

    Go ahead and compare this to the above graphs.

    So, it is clear that the Apollo astronauts’ radiation doses in this case were much less than a common CT scan and far less than what a modern astronaut on the International Space Station receives during a 6-month tour (~7,000 millirem).

    Hence, simply passing through the Van Allen Belts is anything but lethal.


    http://astrowright.wordpress.com/2013/02/13/surviving-radiation-in-space/


    The idiocy here is unsurpassed.  Fake snow that does not melt?!?  US Naval cօռspιʀαcιҽs about Obama ordering 5 carriers to the same spot?  Right mouse click for goodness sake and consider the alternative explanations before posting your nonsense.

    You will convince yourself of any old horsesh!t just because you want to and it justifies your stupid view of the world.

    Offline ggreg

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #4 on: March 14, 2014, 07:08:24 AM »
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  • The data we have about radiation doses during travel from the Earth to the Moon, like with the Van Allen Belts, are not limited to the old Apollo mission data.  For example, the same Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft mentioned above also traveled from the Earth to the Moon and showed a dose during the five day trip (a.k.a. during “translunar injection“) of 1.2 millirem per hour.

    Granted, while this is a level nearly a hundred times the average gamma-ray background radiation intensity on Earth, it is still low enough to not present an immediate concern.  Why?  See the above graphs for a comparison – An astronaut would have to spent more than 170 days in this radiation field before even reaching the NRC’s limit for nuclear workers, which equates to no statistical increase in developing cancer.

    This sort of radiation exposure becomes an issue when planning long-term missions to the Moon or Mars, which involve several months to years of exposure time, but it certainly bore no immediate threat to Apollo astronauts traveling to-and-from the Moon in a matter of days.


    Offline ggreg

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #5 on: March 14, 2014, 07:28:48 AM »
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  • So just incase I did not make it clear.  I am going to go out on a LEM here and say "yes.  Apollo astronauts visited the moon and none of the missions were faked".

    Offline claudel

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #6 on: March 14, 2014, 04:17:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    So just in case I did not make it clear. I am going to go out on a LEM here and say "yes. Apollo astronauts visited the moon and none of the missions were faked".


    I wish, ggreg, that you would wake up to the fact that making sense and asking others to make sense are widely viewed hereabouts as hostile conduct. Really now, this is almost as bad as that other hostile thing you do: telling robo-commenters to stop mooching off their parents and get a job.

    I urge you to resolve—as a Lenten penitential practice for a start—to emulate the holy goofiness that some of the greatest saints* have urged upon us all since Christianity's earliest centuries.
    ____________
    * I'll get back to you later with a few names. It's the merest of coincidences that I can't think of any at the moment.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #7 on: March 15, 2014, 12:28:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: claudel

    I urge you to resolve—as a Lenten penitential practice for a start—to emulate the holy goofiness that some of the greatest saints* have urged upon us all since Christianity's earliest centuries.
    ____________
    * I'll get back to you later with a few names. It's the merest of coincidences that I can't think of any at the moment.


    What is this comment supposed to mean?  Are you mocking the saints?  

    "Holy goofiness"?



    Offline MaterDominici

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #8 on: March 15, 2014, 02:35:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    This sort of radiation exposure becomes an issue when planning long-term missions to the Moon or Mars, which involve several months to years of exposure time, but it certainly bore no immediate threat to Apollo astronauts traveling to-and-from the Moon in a matter of days.


    I watched a Frontline episode about the obstacles in sending a team to Mars some day. The radiation factor was about the only thing that no one was working on a viable solution for. An interviewed astronaut summed up the problem by saying the increased cancer risk of spening 2-3 years in space on one mission was simply part of the job and an acceptable side affect to being among the first people to travel to the red planet. They had no plans in works for shielding any potential travelers from this hazard.

    My question is why haven't we gone back to the moon? Why go once and then set your sights on Mars?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline ggreg

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #9 on: March 15, 2014, 04:17:29 AM »
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  • They went six times and conducted lots of experiments.

    What reason is there to go again?   It is just a huge piece of orbiting basalt with no water and no life.  I only went to San Jose, Costa Rics once because it is a massive shithole.  Rest of the country is nice but it would not visit San Jose again if you paid me.

    It is expensive to mount lunar missions and they are relatively dangerous compared to going into orbit.  Apollo 13 astronauts were very nearly killed.

    There is huge political kudos in doing it the first time but then the public loses interest and it is no longer a vote winner.

    By Apollo 13 the TV networks were not even giving the moon missions full coverage.  By 17 everyone had lost interest.

    The best scientists and minds and mission planners want to be boldly going where no man has gone before, not repeating a 40 year old mission in a greener rocket.

    Offline ggreg

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #10 on: March 15, 2014, 04:27:57 AM »
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  • As for viable solutions, what would the viable solution be for an infantry man to be safe from high velocity sniper rounds?

    He could move around in 4 inch thick armoured suit, but that would have other drawbacks.  So he wears a Kevlar vest and a helmet and hopes for the best.

    All engineering tasks are a compromise.  Some level of safety or comfort is sacrificed for speed or manoeuvrability and vice versa.

    There are no 'solutions, that can get around the laws of physics.  High energy particles are going to bore a hole through anything in their path until their energy is gone.  Just like the sniper bullet.

    When some revolutionary power source is invented so they can lift 24 inch thick lead plate into orbit and line the walls of the starship with it, and then accelerate that mass to the speed of light,  then they will be able to expose the crew to less radiation.  But it will never be zero.  It is not zero here on earth.


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #11 on: March 15, 2014, 04:39:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    It is expensive to mount lunar missions and they are relatively dangerous compared to going into orbit. Apollo 13 astronauts were very nearly killed.

    There is huge political kudos in doing it the first time but then the public loses interest and it is no longer a vote winner.


    It seems everyone has lost interest in the space station too, but AFAIK, they still go there. (Not sure, though, as I've lost interest.) That isn't exactly free.

    If the danger element were scaring them away, why talk and plan about a trip to Mars? Are we expecting to find something way more exciting than what's to be found on the moon?

    Perhaps I'm not your average voter, but putting people on Mars doesn't sound very exciting to me.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #12 on: March 15, 2014, 04:46:57 AM »
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  • The radiation was certainly in their "acceptable risk" category.

    The space equivalent of "sniper rounds" was not and they're working on a foam / metal combination to stop high-speed space fragments. They didn't say why this wasn't a big concern for the earlier missions.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Matthew

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #13 on: March 15, 2014, 07:24:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    They went six times and conducted lots of experiments.

    What reason is there to go again?   It is just a huge piece of orbiting basalt with no water and no life.  I only went to San Jose, Costa Rics once because it is a massive shithole.  Rest of the country is nice but it would not visit San Jose again if you paid me.

    It is expensive to mount lunar missions and they are relatively dangerous compared to going into orbit.  Apollo 13 astronauts were very nearly killed.

    There is huge political kudos in doing it the first time but then the public loses interest and it is no longer a vote winner.

    By Apollo 13 the TV networks were not even giving the moon missions full coverage.  By 17 everyone had lost interest.

    The best scientists and minds and mission planners want to be boldly going where no man has gone before, not repeating a 40 year old mission in a greener rocket.


    I'm sure there are plenty of younger people who would be plenty interested. Besides a few Baby Boomers who remember the moon landing being broadcast at their elementary school, and a bunch of nursing home residents, who alive today could be "sick of" the concept of men on the moon?

    For a HUGE percentage of the living population, it's only been something we've watched docuмentaries about, or read about in history books.

    That's like saying we'd all yawn if there were a cινιℓ ωαr going on, just because in 1861 we "been there, done that, have the T-shirt." Or more accurately, it would be like saying we Americans are even 1% prepared for a cινιℓ ωαr, since we had one in 1861. As if historical events count for personal experience!

    Heck, the Old Testament Israelites had to taste God's wrath personally each generation. It didn't matter how awesome the last smiting was; they went astray and had to taste God's wrath for themselves.

    So I don't think that argument holds a lot of water.

    I think the biggest issue with the Moon landing is: why haven't we gone back?

    Saying it's a "shithole" is a pretty weak argument. It's the MOON for crying out loud. Why not build some kind of station there? If we can build an orbiting space station, why not build a moon base?

    You telling me that wouldn't capture the imagination of the world? Yeah right.

    I'm sure we've developed SOME kind of better propulsion/rocket technology, at least more reliable. We certainly have better computer hardware. That alone should help with monitoring/safety/auto-pilot issues.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Moon landings a hoax?
    « Reply #14 on: March 15, 2014, 07:41:19 AM »
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  • I guess I'm not enough of a geek.
    Though, I admit building some sort of station on the moon would be interesting.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson