Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Mary died? Where did that story come from?  (Read 2827 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sedevacantist

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 140
  • Reputation: +48/-101
  • Gender: Male
Mary died? Where did that story come from?
« on: August 15, 2017, 07:21:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • Since today is the Feast of the Assumption, I thought it would be fitting to set the record straight regarding the story of Mary’s apparent death.  Faithful Catholics NEED to know where this story comes from; and WHY it was spread in the first place.

    Now, as everyone knows, sin is the cause of death. It’s the curse of our fallen nature. And yet, the glorious Mother of God never fell into the least sin; nor was she subject to even the faintest degree of corruption or deterioration whatsoever. Granted, the Son of God was also without sin, but His death was necessary – it had a unique purpose. Not so with the Mother of God. There exists absolutely no logical reason why she should have died. So then, where does this mysterious account of her death come from?

    History tells us that the story of Mary's “Dormition” originated with a man named St. John the Theologian. As is clearly evident from his account, he held the mistaken belief that the Mother of God suffered from the ravages of sin – that she was subject to corruption, deterioration, and death just like any other descendant of Adam. In other words, the story of Mary’s death comes to us from a man who DENIED the incorruptibility of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    There she was: a helpless, bedridden old woman; shriveled up like a prune; weak and dying; barely able to do anything at all but lean up and motion with her hands – and this with considerable effort; having to be carried by the Apostles in a litter because she's unable to even stand up.

    This is St. John’s image of the Blessed Virgin Mary – a woman suffering from the ravages of sin and corruption. It is the outcome of a seriously flawed theological stance (heretical by today's standards). If nothing else, the fact that his account is born of grave error should be enough to make us question the "official" story – majority opinion notwithstanding. From beginning to end, the whole account is founded upon theological error. Like it or not, that’s a fact.

    St. John the Theologian is said to have written his narrative toward the end of the fourth century, or possibly the beginning of the fifth. It's entitled "The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God." Not to be confused with the subject of Mary's Assumption, which was never in doubt, this story merely gives us an account of the details of her "passing". It's from this one single narration that the entire "traditional" belief in her death originates. This is where it all began. Again, this was written in the late fourth or early fifth century. Prior to its writing, there was neither a traditional belief, nor legend, nor myth, nor any story whatsoever regarding the details of Mary's departure from this earth.

    Nor, prior to St. John's story, was there any tomb to be found anywhere attributed to Mary – neither in Jerusalem nor in Ephesus. In fact, no Marian tomb existed anywhere on earth until the 6th century. This, in itself, is convincing evidence that Mary never died – for who can doubt that if a burial location DID exist, there would most certainly have been knowledge of it. In fact, there’s no question that veneration of her tomb would have been second only to the holiest sights attributed to the Son of God.

    On the contrary, writing just prior to St. John the Theologian, St. Epiphanius states in his famous Panarion (377AD.) that in his day no one knows if Mary died or not. "Did she die, we do not know ... Either the holy Virgin died and was buried ... Or she was killed ... Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows." St. Epiphanius, by the way, made a special pilgrimage to Jerusalem to venerate the holy shrines. If anyone was aware of a tomb in Jerusalem attributed to the Mother of God, or any burial site to speak of, certainly he would have been privy to it. And yet, nothing. He clearly states that no one knows any details of her Assumption. Incidentally, he later states in the same work that he believed Mary never died, but was taken up like Elijah.

    Nor was St. Epiphanius the only one in his day to believe that Mary never died. There is a sermon attributed to a priest named Timothy of Jerusalem, also dated to the 4th century, that speaks of her continuing "immortal". Another contemporary, a man named John of Thessalonica, believed likewise during this same period. Even so, St. Epiphanius' writings are considered the earliest and most authoritative as the saint was named a Father and Teacher of the Church by the Seventh Ecuмenical Council.

    The point being, the account of Mary's death is not a "Traditional" belief dating back to Apostolic times. It originated in the late fourth century, or early fifth. Prior to this time, there was no historical record whatsoever involving any details of her Assumption. No legends, stories, myths, or accounts of any kind. Nor did a burial tomb attributed to Mary exist anywhere on earth prior to the 6th century – neither in Jerusalem, nor Ephesus, nor anywhere at all. There’s no coincidence here.

    St. John the Theologian says Mary died. The evidence says otherwise. Who are you going to believe? Keep in mind that the account of her death emanated from within the mind of a man who did not believe in the incorruptibility of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the end, St. John’s story was born of grave theological error – heresy by today’s standards. That’s where it comes from. That’s not to say that the man was guilty of heresy, as the Church hadn't formally decided the matter yet. Nevertheless, his story is founded upon a serious theological error. That’s a fact. And it is PRECISELY because of this heretical position that the author conceives of Mary's death.

    Even so, putting aside St. John for the moment, there is a deeper, more sinister reason for the spreading of this lie (let’s call it what it is). And what is that reason? Remember again, SIN is the cause of death. Bearing this fact in mind, imagine what a contradiction exists when speaking of the “Sinless Virgin Mother of God”, and her mysterious death. Has it not been an ongoing battle for centuries trying to come up with excuses to explain away her supposed Dormition: “Oh, well, she wanted to… um, be so much like her Son that she requested to die.”  “No, it was her profound humility that caused her to accept death.”  “No, No. It was the intense heartbreak caused by the separation from her Son.”  Right.

    Here’s an excuse no one ever mentions: “The Devil spread the story of Mary’s death in order to destroy her sinless image.” Now that makes sense… First of all, the story is founded upon an heretical belief. That means it comes from the Devil. And why else would he want the Catholic world to think that Mary died? Who knows, maybe it was partly because of this lie that some of the greatest theologians in the history of the Church – St. Thomas, for example – argued against Mary’s Immaculate Conception. One thing’s for sure: this glorious dogma was kept from the faithful precisely because of the influence of theologians like St. Thomas. God rest his soul. At any rate, for many, many centuries, the question of whether or not Mary was sinless lingered in the back of everyone’s mind BECAUSE of widely held beliefs such as her supposed death. Think what you like. The facts remain: The story of Mary’s death began with grave theological error, and ended in heresy. It’s a lie, plain and simple.

    No doubt St. John meant only to praise the virtues of the Blessed Virgin Mary with his story. I certainly don’t mean to badger him. I’m sure he was a pious soul. Perhaps in his own mind, he really believed that he was being “enlightened” by God. Heaven knows he wouldn’t be the first. But whatever the case, there’s absolutely no doubt that the Devil was ultimately the author of this story. Facts are facts. Like it or not.

    In closing, I would only ask that for the first time in countless ages, we lay aside this soiling filth of a lie, and honor the Most Holy Mother of God with the truth. Let’s allow her, for once, to enjoy the fullness of her glorious Assumption into Heaven. Who knows, she might even bless us for it…

    In the meantime, may God grant her glory and majesty and wisdom and honor for all ages to come.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10299
    • Reputation: +6212/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #1 on: August 15, 2017, 08:25:19 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • As Our Lady did not have to present herself in the Temple after giving birth to Our Lord, so she did, in humility, to obey the law.  As Our Lady did not deserve death, due to her sinlessness, and her not having Original Sin, so she accepted it, in humility, as an example to us.  Our Lady also died, though it was not a punishment, but to follow Our Lord's example on the cross, and to suffer death as a final oblation of herself, to God the Father, for us sinners and for the Church.  Though she died, her body was only in the grave 72 hrs, or 3 days, as was Our Lord's.  She did not suffer any body corruption for her soul and body were always pure.


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #2 on: August 15, 2017, 09:17:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Then where does the traditional account come from, of St. Thomas being miraculously transported from India to the Blessed Virgin Mary's side? It says he was too far away to get there in time by normal transportation, but that is not an obstacle to God, who transported him instantly. 
    .
    She had been lying in the sepulcher for 3 days when the Apostles opened it and found instead of her body inside there were lilies growing (in the dark!) and in full bloom. Where or how her body had gone was never in question.
    .
    So, why would the Apostles have put her into a sealed sepulcher if she were not dead? Is it normal to put someone into a tomb and shut it tight while they're still alive?
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline josefamenendez

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4421
    • Reputation: +2946/-199
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #3 on: August 15, 2017, 09:45:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Did our Lady age? Aging is a form of corruption leading to death. I never heard anyone address that. Regardless she was always the Most Beautiful!

    Offline DZ PLEASE

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2928
    • Reputation: +741/-787
    • Gender: Male
    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #4 on: August 15, 2017, 10:22:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!4
  • Did our Lady age? Aging is a form of corruption leading to death. I never heard anyone address that. Regardless she was always the Most Beautiful!
    Corpus>corporeal>time and space. Did Christ remain a "  blastocyst"? If not, then how is the creature greater than the creator?

    If so, " Nice talkin' to yuh"
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 11:53:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Did our Lady age? Aging is a form of corruption leading to death. I never heard anyone address that. Regardless she was always the Most Beautiful!
    Listen to the sermon by the Cure d'Ars on this topic read by a fine priest:
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-sermons/sermon-from-the-cure-of-ars-(feast-of-the-assumption-of-the-blessed-virgin-mary)/
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline josefamenendez

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4421
    • Reputation: +2946/-199
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #6 on: August 16, 2017, 08:11:28 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Corpus>corporeal>time and space. Did Christ remain a "  blastocyst"? If not, then how is the creature greater than the creator?

    If so, " Nice talkin' to yuh""


    No.. not exactly. my thoughts were more towards  the tradition that our Lady might have remained at the age of 33, certainly not doctrine but i have heard that that is how we will appear in heaven. It's just speculation. 
    In retrospect, probably a poorly worded and bad question.  

    Offline josefamenendez

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4421
    • Reputation: +2946/-199
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #7 on: August 16, 2017, 08:12:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Corpus>corporeal>time and space. Did Christ remain a "  blastocyst"? If not, then how is the creature greater than the creator?

    If so, " Nice talkin' to yuh""


    No.. not exactly. my thoughts were more towards  the tradition that our Lady might have remained at the age of 33, certainly not doctrine but i have heard that that is how we will appear in heaven. It's just speculation.
    In retrospect, probably a poorly worded and bad question.


    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11659
    • Reputation: +6988/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #8 on: August 16, 2017, 04:41:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sedevacantist, is your post your own composition? and where did you get this idea that Mary did not die? In 71 years of orthodox Catholic teaching and reading I have never heard such an innovative idea. I wonder about the origin of this. Just your own speculation? It's not wise to be dogmatic about your own speculation.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline sedevacantist

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 140
    • Reputation: +48/-101
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 06:49:53 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sedevacantist, is your post your own composition? and where did you get this idea that Mary did not die? In 71 years of orthodox Catholic teaching and reading I have never heard such an innovative idea. I wonder about the origin of this. Just your own speculation? It's not wise to be dogmatic about your own speculation.
    I'm not being dogmatic about this at all. I clearly said to "Think what you like" about the subject. I'm merely presenting the well-docuмented facts (which anyone can find on their own) and drawing a logical conclusion based upon those facts.

    There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that suggests Mary actually died. All we have are "stories" that appear out of the clear blue sky many centuries later. For at least the first four centuries of Christendom, there were no stories at all either one way or the other. The story of here death only surfaced 4 centuries later, and was cooked up by someone who clearly denied the incorruptibility of the Mother of God. Frankly, I don't see the difficulty here. The first person to present a story of Mary actually dying came from a man who erroneously believed that she was subject to death? It sounds pretty cut and dry to me.

    Nor was there even a tomb anywhere on earth attributed to Mary until the 6th century. That's over 500 years - the time span since Christopher Columbus landed on the shores of America. That's a long, long time without a grave to speak of. And keep in mind, we're not talking about an average Saint here, nor even about one of the renowned few such as St. Francis of Assisi. No, we're talking about the most pure, most angelic, most Holy Mother of God - the one great Saints like St. Francis turn to for THEIR holiness. All this to say, if there was a tomb dedicated to Mary anywhere on this earth, it would certainly have been one of the greatest and most frequented of holy sights in all of Christendom. And yet, for 6oo years... nothing? Impossible.

    I would respectfully suggest you go back and read the opening post again. You seem to be overlooking the facts, and the entire line of reasoning.

    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11659
    • Reputation: +6988/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 10:26:46 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Why should there ever be any mention of a grave or a tomb? After all, the Catholic Church teaches that she was taken up, body and soul, into heaven. So arguing that there no tomb found makes no sense. Neither do any of your speculations.

    Your opening paragraph: 

    Quote
    Since today is the Feast of the Assumption, I thought it would be fitting to set the record straight regarding the story of Mary’s apparent death.  Faithful Catholics NEED to know where this story comes from; and WHY it was spread in the first place.

    gives the impression that you came here to teach and enlight us, when indeed you are not only confused but quite opinionated. 

    We do have the teachings of the Church so we don't need to fabricate our own.

    Pope Pius XII – Did Mary Die?
    If you read Munificentissimus Deus, it becomes manifest that the Holy Father taught that our Immaculate Lady died an earthly death before being assumed bodily into Heaven. This belief is stated repeatedly in the text of Munificentissimus Deus. Here are some examples from Munificentissimus Deus:
    Citing Pope Adrian I, His Holiness Pope Pius XII records:
    Quote
    Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”
    Citing the Byzantine liturgy:
    Quote
    As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus he has kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.”
    Citing Saint Modestus, the Holy Father writes:
    Quote
    As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.”
    The citations employed by Pope Pius XII reveal that he believed and intended to show that the Immaculate Virgin Mary did in fact undergo death prior to her glorious Assumption.
    http://taylormarshall.com/2013/08/did-the-virgin-mary-die.html
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Nooseph Polten

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 154
    • Reputation: +68/-54
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 07:24:46 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • "As the Son had died, the mother should also die; and because He wishes to give to the just an example of the blessed death prepared for them, He decreed that the Virgin Mary should die, but by a sweet and happy death." St. Alphonsus Ligouri
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline sedevacantist

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 140
    • Reputation: +48/-101
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #12 on: August 17, 2017, 07:43:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nadir,
    As to your question of why there should be any mention of a grave or a tomb, you’re missing the point. One more time… It is theoretically IMPOSSIBLE that a tomb wherein the Mother of God was not only laid to rest, but from where she later rose body and soul into Heaven, to have been completely forgotten. And this, in the very city which boasted the greatest number of Christian pilgrims in the ancient world – Jerusalem itself. And not only was there nowhere to be found any apparent location of her death and Assumption, but there existed not even the faintest whiff of an account that even remotely hinted of her death, or any events leading up to it. No tomb. No story. No account whatsoever. Nothing. How is it you don’t understand? I’m giving you the cold, hard facts – facts which (via simple common logic) disprove the possibility of your position. Were we in a court of law, your argument would be tossed out the window. It cannot stand up in light of the facts.

    Think about this for a moment: there exists today the remains of a church reputed to have been the largest in the early centuries of Christianity. It was built to honor the location where Our Blessed Lady sat down to rest on her journey to Egypt. Where she did nothing but sit down to rest. Certainly you grasp the scope and depth of Marian devotion among faithful Catholics. How then could you imagine the location of her tomb and bodily Assumption to have been completely forgotten about – in Jerusalem, no less – and in a very short amount of time? And not only the location to have vanished, but any account of the event was forgotten as well? It’s theoretically impossible. The non-existence of a tomb is solid evidence that the entire story of her death is nothing more than the elaborate concoction of a man – and a man who believed Mary suffered from sin and deterioration.

    Moreover, until this concocted story of her supposed death appeared in the 6th century, the prevailing belief seems to have been that Mary was simply taken up to Heaven as was Elijah. As I wrote in the opening post, St. Epiphanius went to Jerusalem in the 4th century for the purpose of visiting the holy sights. He said that there was no story whatsoever surrounding Mary’s departure from this earth. Nothing at all. Not a word. Much less was there any tomb to venerate. Commenting around the same time period, Timothy of Jerusalem was unaware of any account describing Mary’s supposed death – and he LIVED in Jerusalem. Certainly he would have heard something? No. He believed the same as St. Epiphanius. John of Thessolonica, of the same period, believed likewise.

    It would seem to me that the original “innovative” opinion on the matter came with St. John the Theologian – that of Mary’s actual bodily death. This is the first time anyone ever heard of such a story. And why not, for there existed absolutely no evidence of this event anywhere on earth – not even in Jerusalem, where it was supposed to have taken place.

    And as for your quoted statements by Pius XII, certainly you recognize that the personal opinion of Pius XII hardly represents the “Teaching of the Church”. His statements regarding Mary’s bodily death were simply expressed as his own personal opinion. They have no binding or dogmatic force whatsoever. In his statements specifically regarding Mary’s Assumption, he only makes an ambiguous statement to the effect that her time on earth came to an end. He never made any statement as to her bodily death, as anyone can read. In fact, one could easily argue that the very reason WHY he didn’t specifically mention her bodily death in his official statement, was because the Holy Ghost prevented him from doing so…

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10299
    • Reputation: +6212/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #13 on: August 17, 2017, 10:15:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's an interesting question you pose, regarding if Our Lady had a tomb.  Just because we can't find a tomb doesn't mean She didn't die.  Maybe she didn't have a "tomb" in the ordinary sense of the word?  Maybe she died in her bed, like St Joseph, and seeing that St John was her personal priest, that he took care of Her body after that?  Maybe St John knew that She was not to be buried in the earth, but that he was to wait for Her assumption, which would happen only a short time later - 72 hrs later, to be exact?  Maybe Her "tomb" was the Holy House of Loretto itself?  Certainly this is a plausible explanation, considering the fantastic miracles that are attributed to this house, that it was transported by Angels across the sea, among other miracles.  Would this not explain the "missing" tomb and why God has deemed that this house should be protected and venerated?

    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11659
    • Reputation: +6988/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 10:55:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Or that Mary did not die in Jerusalem, but close by her son John, in Ephesus? 

    There is absolutely no reason to believe that Mary did not die, other than your own very active imagination. Anyway, have your fantasies, but don't expect others to take them as gospel.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.