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Author Topic: Mary died? Where did that story come from?  (Read 2841 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2017, 12:47:49 PM »
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  • This is rubbish:

    Quote
    It is theoretically IMPOSSIBLE that a tomb wherein the Mother of God was not only laid to rest, but from where she later rose body and soul into Heaven, to have been completely forgotten.
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    Why is that rubbish? Here's why:
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    The place of burial for Moses is not known. But that he died is contained in Scripture (Deut. 34: 5-7), nor are there any relics of his body to be found anywhere.
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    Quote
    http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=5&ch=34&l=5#x

    [5] And Moses the servant of the Lord died there, in the land of Moab, by the commandment of the Lord:
    [6] And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre until this present day.
    [7] Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, neither were his teeth moved.
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    Most of the miracles Our Lord performed are not recorded in Scripture. Does that mean they didn't happen?
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    Even Padre Pio, who died recently ( 1968 ), was known to have worked many miracles every day, while we only have record of a few of them. For him, miracles were as commonplace as everyday life for the rest of us. How then could it have been otherwise for Our Lord?
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    And we don't have ANY record of miracles worked during her lifetime of Our Lady (we have a lot of them attributed to her in our own time but not during her own lifetime).
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    Her miraculous Assumption could easily be seen as the final miracle in a long series of miracles, none of which are recorded, so it's not "theoretically impossible" in any way whatsoever. On the contrary, it's quite reasonable and understandable.  
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    The principle focus of the Apostles was the life and real presence of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. It was His life, His passion, His death, His burial and His ascension that was foremost in their minds. And the incomparable humility of the Blessed Virgin Mary would have reasonably had the effect of causing the Apostles to pay attention to her Son rather than to her. She was not all about taking center stage and usurping our attention. It has only been during the passage of history that veneration of her place in the economy of God's salvation has come forward.
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    Perhaps some of the Apostles wanted to keep a memory of Our Lady's miracles and her place of burial but then the Holy Ghost intervened to prohibit them from doing so. Have you considered that possibility? If the Holy Ghost wished to have her sepulchre remembered He would have seen to it that it was. But He did not. Maybe you ought to take it up with the Holy Ghost. But be careful!!
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    It's a Protestant tactic to criticize the Church for veneration of Mary, and here is an admitted sedevacantist claiming that the Church doesn't venerate her sufficiently and must have had it wrong all this time.
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    Maybe you'd like to start your own church and take on fighting all the Protestants as well as the Catholic Church?
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    All you're accomplishing is demonstrating how cutting yourself off from the Pope with your sedevacantism leads you into error by your becoming suspicious and incredulous toward traditional Church doctrine and traditions.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #16 on: August 18, 2017, 08:07:48 PM »
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  • The City of God will give you answers about Our Lady.  


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #17 on: August 18, 2017, 10:57:11 PM »
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  • The City of God will give you answers about Our Lady.  
    I presume you mean St Augustine.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #18 on: August 19, 2017, 05:08:52 PM »
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  • .
    All you're accomplishing is demonstrating how cutting yourself off from the Pope with your sedevacantism leads you into error by your becoming suspicious and incredulous toward traditional Church doctrine and traditions.
    Agreed. It's a slippery slope.
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #19 on: August 19, 2017, 05:32:49 PM »
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  • Since today is the Feast of the Assumption, I thought it would be fitting to set the record straight regarding the story of Mary’s apparent death....
    Another genius who cracked code. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #20 on: August 19, 2017, 07:08:51 PM »
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  • Did our Lady age? Aging is a form of corruption leading to death. I never heard anyone address that. Regardless she was always the Most Beautiful!
    I can't tell you how nice it is to hear from someone who still has use of their head. Everyone else seems to have lost their ability to reason things out. Mary never aged a day past 33 years. This was God's way of testifying to her freedom from sin (since, out of humility, she would never divulge something like that to others).

    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #21 on: August 19, 2017, 07:20:51 PM »
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  • Another genius who cracked code.
    Cracked code? What "code" are you referring to? It's docuмented history:  
    THE STORY OF MARY'S SUPPOSED DEATH CAME FROM THE MIND OF ONE MAN - A MAN WHO DENIED THE PERPETUAL SINLESSNESS OF MARY.      

    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #22 on: August 19, 2017, 07:27:24 PM »
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  • Agreed. It's a slippery slope.
    I haven't said one single word against any Church tradition whatsoever. The story was cooked up in the sixth century by a man who denied the perpetual sinlessness of the Mother of God. That' doesn't constitute "Tradition"  at all. If anything, I'm UPHOLDING the traditional teaching of the Church that those who were born without Original Sin were not under the curse of death. Nor is anyone who never commits any sin worthy of death. What "tradition" are you upholding? There's absolutely NOTHING "Traditional" about your position at all. In fact, it was founded on a serious theological error (heresy by today's standards).


    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #23 on: August 19, 2017, 07:33:51 PM »
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  • Neil Obstat,
    Far be it from me to answer the statements of a babbling Freemason. Nevertheless, for the sake of the Catholics who frequent this site, I'll indulge you: Your position regarding the story of Moses' death is irrelevant. Unlike his case, where we were still given ample testimony by the Holy Ghost of the circuмstances involving his death and burial, not one single word was mentioned anywhere regarding Mary's supposed death and burial. No tomb, no story, no evidence whatsoever.
    And yet you hold this up as your proof...
    Go home Mason

    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #24 on: August 19, 2017, 07:42:01 PM »
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  • Or that Mary did not die in Jerusalem, but close by her son John, in Ephesus?

    There is absolutely no reason to believe that Mary did not die, other than your own very active imagination. Anyway, have your fantasies, but don't expect others to take them as gospel.
    Absolutely NO REASON to believe that Mary did not die...? Except for the fact that she was sinless from her Immaculate Conception, and therefore not under the curse of death.  
    Honestly, I could get more intelligent answers from the zoo. I give up. I'll say it one more time, and then I'm done:
    THE STORY OF MARY'S DEATH CAME FROM THE MIND OF A MAN WHO BELIEVED THAT MARY WAS A SINNER, AND THEREFORE UNDER THE CURSE OF DEATH. THAT'S WHERE IT ALL BEGAN.
    If you people wish to perpetuate this story, go right ahead. I've said all I intended to say.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #25 on: August 19, 2017, 09:06:58 PM »
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  • Cracked code? What "code" are you referring to? It's docuмented history:  
    THE STORY OF MARY'S SUPPOSED DEATH CAME FROM THE MIND OF ONE MAN - A MAN WHO DENIED THE PERPETUAL SINLESSNESS OF MARY.      
    Anyone who does not know of the book City of God  by Mary of Agreda (Cuidad De Dios, by Maria de Agreda ), has no business teaching others about Our Blessed Mother. Fools rush in where wise men fear to go. English copies also have the anglicized title of Mystical City of God. It is four volumes about the whole life of the Blessed Mother written in the 1600's. If you want to know about her whole life read the book and come back when you are done.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #26 on: August 19, 2017, 09:11:53 PM »
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  • I presume you mean St Augustine.
    I expect she's referring to Bl. Mary of Agreda's book(s) (4-volume set with many papal approbations).  
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    There is a tradition in the eastern Catholic Church that has Mary falling asleep, called the Dormition. They have a feast day by that name (The Dormition of the Mother of God). When Pope Pius XII gave his dogmatic definition in 1950, when he came to the part about the end of Our Lady's life, he prudently does not say that she "died" nor does he mention her "death." 
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    So if you want to think that she didn't really die, it is not in conflict with Church teaching. But I've never heard anyone explain how the Apostles could have sealed her into a place of burial if they were not sure she had died. That part doesn't add up to me. And as often as I have asked priests about this question, they have not given me a satisfactory answer.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #27 on: August 19, 2017, 09:19:24 PM »
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  • Neil Obstat,
    Far be it from me to answer the statements of a babbling Freemason. 
    Go home Mason
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    You're making a case against your own access to this website.
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    Your posts and your sour, disrespectful attitude combine to show how banning sedevacantists could improve this forum.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #28 on: August 20, 2017, 09:10:00 AM »
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  • I don't understand why the OP author starts his post off "guns blazing" mad, as if he just got stung by a hornet?  Calm down, man.  Let's have a civil discussion instead of some agitated argument.  

    I'm not saying I distrust Mary of Agreda but the best source for what happened to Our Lady is Tradition (i.e. What the Church Fathers taught, who were the direct successors of the Apostles).

    There are obvious traditions in the east and the west Church that Our Lady "lost consciousness" for an extended period of time.  If you want to call it "sleep" or "death", whatever.  The point is, she didn't avoid the appearance of death.  And after such a sleep/death She assumed into heaven.  

    Now, we know that all the Apostles were present to see Her assumed into heaven.  How did they know to be there?  Did Our Lady foretell the day of her assumption?  No.  More than likely, the Apostles gathered together when they heard she "died/slept" and then She assumed while they were there.

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Mary died? Where did that story come from?
    « Reply #29 on: August 20, 2017, 01:00:24 PM »
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  • .
    You're making a case against your own access to this website.
    .
    Your posts and your sour, disrespectful attitude combine to show how banning sedevacantists could improve this forum.
    .
    Well Neil, since we have established that you work for NASA and believe in aliens, it would not be a surprise that you are or have been a freemason.
    So for the record, can you please deny that you have ever joined a Masonic lodge? (if you have and repented, please make that clear)
    But I do agree with you on the issue at hand. He is talking rubbish. The majority of theologians say she died. hence the papal citation above.
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017