Author Topic: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics? (Read 59927 times)

Mark 79 · « **Reply #300 on:** March 13, 2022, 08:15:02 PM »

Quote from: Carissima on March 13, 2022, 03:54:40 PM

Mark, are any of your children teenagers or young adults, or soon to be?

I choose to make my family off-limits. You seem to be sincere in your questions, so I will answer your other questions.

Quote from: Carissima on March 13, 2022, 03:54:40 PM

Would you be fine with any one of them ‘recreationally’ smoking a joint during a family get-together, and in front of their younger siblings? What about your wife?

Unless there was an indication of an actual problem (pre-existent psychosis, job drug testing, et al.) I would be fine with my wife or adult children partaking in a legal venue, designated driver, et al.

Mind you, this is hypothetical.

Quote from: Carissima on March 13, 2022, 03:54:40 PM

Like drinking a glass of wine or smoking a cigarette, are you as indifferent to MJ being enjoyed by your immediate family as alcohol or nicotine?

Part of our nervous system, the nicotinic system, is defined by its susceptibility to being poisoned by nicotine. Also because tobacco is a carcinogen, I do not see it on equal footing with a glass of wine. I am not aware of any legitimate medical use of tobacco that is not better served by safer alternatives. I oppose tobbaco use.

It seems you are focusing on consumption in the home, so my remarks below are in the context of home use (not driving, at work, etc.).

I am not indifferent to even food on the table. It matters to me whether food is organic or not.

I am not indifferent to alcohol or MJ. In both regards in my home I have a duty. I would tolerate (or serve) neither alcohol nor MJ to anyone in whom such use, in my opinion (my home, my opinion), is at risk and for whom such use would be inappropriate (e.g., known substance abuse history, relevant psychiatric history, liver disease, no designated driver).

You and others just might have noticed that on matters in which I am adequately-to-well-informed, I am slightly [grinning] opinionated. In realms of controversial subjects on which I am informed, the word "indifferent" hardly applies.

Quote from: Carissima on March 13, 2022, 03:54:40 PM

In your mind, are the methods for using MJ neutral? Edibles vs. smoking? Joint vs. pipe?

That is an easy question that deserves a complex answer. I would refer you to one of the 8 articles I wrote except that it would dox me and that would endanger my family vis-à-vis my website. Instead I will try to summarize as best I can here.

First, the short answer: Not neutral.
Then, the longer answer…

The manner of ingestion dramatically changes the chemicals to which one's body is exposed and responds:

edibles: bioavailability and rate of absorption varies considerably depending on percentage of fat in the diet (most of the bioactive compounds are fat soluble, so more fat means better absorption), gut motility (how fast intestinal peristalsis moves), amount of bile salts (affects fat absorption), and even mood (affects the rate of gut motility).
The bioactive compounds absorbed pass from the gut via the portal vein through the liver where they are metabolized (changed) and then dumped into the inferior vena cava, go to the heart, then are pumped to the entire body. There are dozens of cannabinoids in MJ (phytocannabinoids) and they are changed into metabolites that have different bioactivity from the original molecules (most become less psycho-active, a few become more psycho-active). Note that I specified psychoactive. In balance, edibles are less psychoactive than if an equivalent amount is vaped or smoked.
Also, all this absorption and metabolism takes time, so the onset is usually delayed and prolonged compared to smoking or vaping.

smoking: fast onset, easy to titrate, chemicals changed by the burning (it is smoke after all).
About cancer—researchers have spent entire careers trying to prove that smoking MJ causes cancer. They have failed. They can point to this or that carcinogenic compound in MJ smoke, but large scale/long term studies have shown that MJ smokers have lower rates of lung and all other cancers than non-smokers.

vaping: equally fast onset, easy to titrate, no smoke, just gas, but the profile of chemicals sublimated (off-gassed) varies considerably depending on the vape temperature used. If you use >350°C, you are really burning/smoking. The different cannabinoids, terpenes, and flavinoids sublimate at different temperatures, so you can dramatically alter the chemicals absorbed (e.g., can aim for a high CBD/low THC ratio if desired).

I think patients naive to MJ (never tried it) should NOT start with edibles. In my opinion, new users should go low and slow. They should titrate the ingestion to effect. Take 1 puff (vape or smoke), wait 10-20 minutes, and notice the effect. If the effect is sufficient, you are done. If insufficient effect, take 1 puff, wait 10-20 minutes, and notice the effect. Repeat until the goal (e.g., pain relief, decreased nausea, etc.) is achieved, then you are done until the effect wears off).

There are just too many variables with edibles (see above) to make titration easy. I think new users should gain at least 1 or 2 weeks experience with smoking or vaping before a timid low dose trial of edibles. Because the effect is prolonged, edibles can be very beneficial to patients with chronic problems, but one should first gain an appreciation of the amount necessary to achieve the goal.

With smoking and vaping the effect is appreciated in seconds or minutes. With edibles ("medibles") it can take several hours to notice the effects, but those effects will usually be quite sustained.

Now, key point, the medical effects are not necessarily proportional to the psychoactive effects and, to the best of my knowledge (somewhat dated since it was about 10 years ago that I last did a deep dive on this subject), for any specific medical problem we do not know whether the chemical profile of edibles, smoking, or vaping is best. When asked, I generally suggest that people try each and decide for themselves what gives the best relief of their symptoms.

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I am wondering myself how someone would go about finding a trusted source for purchasing MJ safely? Some of it has stronger THC levels than others, some is even laced with Fentanyl which is deadly in small amounts. I don’t know of alcohol or cigarettes having these issues, so these are important questions for people to ask.

In states where dispensaries are legal, it is generally the case that every batch of MJ is tested for potency, contaminants, and pathogens and displayed at the point of sale. That is as good as it gets.

Lots of connoisseurs get wrapped around the axle over "THC" and "CBD," but I think that is over-emphasized as regards medical usage. Here's why. Based on dozens of discussions with MMJ patients who have tried purified prescription THC or CBD (not many are lucky enough to have been prescribed such truly pharmaceutical grade chemicals), every single one of them reported to me that they get better relief from the plant product than they do from the THC or CBD pills.

THC and CBD percentages. Those two are routinely tested and reported, but there are dozens of active phytocannabinoids AND the terpenes and flavinoids also play a role. I think that it is the combination of cannabinoids, terpenes, and flavinoids that determines not only fragrance and taste, but also the medical benefit. I think this explains the consistency with which patients/users report that monotherapy (pharmaceutical pills) is less effective than whole plant products. A few here have mentioned that God put this plant on this earth and I believe indeed that His plant far outperforms (((BigPharma))).

People go nuts over the "strain" of the product. Genetics do indeed play a role, but the fertilizers, time of harvest, manner of drying and curing all work to determine the chemical profile by the time it arrives in the store. Poor propagation can defeat good genetics. Best, of course, is good genetics and good propagation and handling.

Personally, if I were to consume, I would lean towards "outdoor, organic" product. Maybe it's just a fetish, but it is more appealing to me to ingest a product that is grown in God's earth under His sun that circles that earth. Is there science to that? Probably no more science than my preference for sangiovese and mourvedre wine varietals (about 1 glass per year) or Kirin Ichiban and Sapporo Kuro beer. That said, many years ago there were reports that certain brands of hydroponic nutrients had high heavy metal levels. I heard that problem was addressed, but I still have a preference for AZOMITE, bone meal, kelp meal and bat guano fertilized vegetables (I am a green thumb guy) rather than NH₄NO₃ etc. NH₄NO₃is better saved for heaving. ;-)

Another issue that wraps too many people around the axle, "indica" or "sativa." Supposedly the "indica" varieties are more sedating ("couch lock") and "sativa" varieties are more energizing. For starters, it is a complete botanical misnomer. I kick myself for not archiving the article about that confusion, but the misnomer is so deeply embedded in the jargon, you/we are stuck with it.

If you do not live in a state where MJ is legal, you are in a difficult spot. who can you trust? Is it worth the legal risk? I think not, but I have spoken with too many desperate cancer patients who live in states where MJ is not legal. You decide that one. Does the illegality put you in proximity to dangerous people? In fact, the contact with criminal suppliers is one of the strongest arguments for legalization. All that "gateway drug" rubbish is not due to the inherent nature of MJ, but to the profit motives of criminals who are incentivized to move you to truly addictive (dangerous) and more expensive drugs.

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I think these are some good examples of ‘where the rubber meets the road’ that Tradican is asking about.

I disagree. I think (1) he is ill-willed and wants ammo to insult me and my family and (2) he dpoesn;t know his ass from a hole in the ground.

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Just trying to understand better where you are coming from…

I am happy to help anyone of good will. I hope this has helped.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #301 on:** March 13, 2022, 09:26:48 PM »

Quote from: Mark 79 on March 13, 2022, 08:15:02 PM

I disagree. I think (1) LT is ill-willed and wants ammo to insult me and my family and (2) he dpoesn;t know his ass from a hole in the ground.

If I was ill willed I would not have said one thing, for what would I care what happens to you or anyone that follows your advice? You have now finally explained yourself clearly about recreational use of marijuana and the situation is as I thought it would be, judging from everything you had wriiten before you finally came out. You are very naive, you think that you "cracked the code" of "safe recreational" use of drugs. Recreational? Something to do for fun. That's speaks for itself.

For others with eyes to see, I would not recommend any Catholic with children follow his example, it will only lead to the loss of the faith in the next generation and a bad example to others. I doubt there is anyone here that would follow his advice anyhow.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #302 on:** March 13, 2022, 09:56:54 PM »

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There's a real world out there where our children will be confronted with drug use and the promiscuity which it brings with it, and your "moral theology explanations" will answer nothing to them and be like water off a duck to them, as they are to me

Yeah, drugs have been around for decades. Moral theologists have written about alcohol, drugs, etc for CENTURIES. If one understands the principles then you apply them to your daily life. It's not that hard.

1) does the use of x thing cause the loss of reason? If yes, then it's a mortal sin, so you can't do it.
Exception: If there is a grave reason (medical or otherwise, then one it might be ok)...i.e. morphine can be used post surgery.
2) if the x thing doesn't cause loss of reason but does impair your reason slightly, can you do it? If you have a legitimate reason to do so, yes. If no reason, then it is probably a venial sin.
3) if the x thing doesn't impair your reason but simply relaxes you or gives you a "buzz" can you do it? If occasionally and it doesn't affect your duties of life, yes. If it becomes a bad habit, this is based on your conscience, because it could lead to bigger sins.

This is how one applies moral theology to one's daily life. If you're the type of person who can't deal with such analysis, and you need a "yes or no" answer to everything, then moral theology isn't for you. But you should have the humility to admit such and stop trying to force everyone to view the world through your eyes. God gave us all different temperaments, skills and thinking for a reason - life isn't "one size fits all"; that also applies to Catholicism, to some degree. No 2 saints are alike.

Mark 79 · « **Reply #303 on:** March 13, 2022, 09:59:54 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on March 13, 2022, 09:26:48 PM

Blah, blah, blah…

In your case, I support mandatory vaccination.

Gloria Tibi Domine · « **Reply #304 on:** March 13, 2022, 10:09:00 PM »

No, Mark 79, I do not support medical pot. I do not support recreational pot. If church teaching states that using pot in itself isn't sinful, that does not mean I have to support legalizing pot. I live in the real world, not the textbook, where using pot has consequences. Immorality, loose morals and social problems accompany pot use. Your own job prohibits it. The military, civil service jobs prohibit pot use. I don't need studies to confirm experience. LT is on the money. At best, you are naive about the harm pot use does to society one soul at a time.

Mark 79, you are truly rotten. Let the vaccination start with you. No justification for your response to LT-except that you don't like the response.
In your case, I support mandatory vaccination.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #305 on:** March 13, 2022, 10:21:49 PM »

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I live in the real world, not the textbook, where using pot has consequences.

And in the real world, you *should* know that getting illegal MJ is not hard and not expensive. Keeping MJ illegal actually increases crime and creates a blackmarket where criminals are incentivized to grow dangerous strands (which cause medical harm and most addictions) in order to make more profit.

If MJ is legal, (and i'm not talking about govt run shops but straight legal to grow a plant on your back porch) then the dangers of MJ will crumble like a house of cards. You won't have drug dealers running around with gang wars (same as what happened in the 20s with Al Capone and bootleggers). Just like when alcohol was made legal again, crime plummeted because the crime aspect is cut out of the equation. And if some hippy dude wants to grow some plants in his back yard, guess what? He's going to grow safe, natural stuff (not the synthetic stuff out on the streets) because he doesn't want to die, he just wants to relax and have fun.

Mark 79 · « **Reply #306 on:** March 13, 2022, 10:35:15 PM »

Quote from: Gloria Tibi Domine on March 13, 2022, 10:09:00 PM

No, Mark 79, I do not support medical pot. …

Well then—you are metaphorically spitting in the face of people who suffer greatly.

DigitalLogos · « **Reply #307 on:** March 13, 2022, 10:42:55 PM »

Quote from: Gloria Tibi Domine on March 13, 2022, 10:09:00 PM

Mark 79, you are truly rotten. Let the vaccination start with you. No justification for your response to LT-except that you don't like the response.
In your case, I support mandatory vaccination.

Cursing people eh? Not real Catholic of you.

"And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
[Matthew 5:22]

Mark 79 · « **Reply #308 on:** March 13, 2022, 10:52:36 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 13, 2022, 10:21:49 PM

And in the real world, you *should* know that getting illegal MJ is not hard and not expensive. Keeping MJ illegal actually increases crime and creates a blackmarket where criminals are incentivized to grow dangerous strands (which cause medical harm and most addictions) in order to make more profit.

If MJ is legal, (and i'm not talking about govt run shops but straight legal to grow a plant on your back porch) then the dangers of MJ will crumble like a house of cards. You won't have drug dealers running around with gang wars (same as what happened in the 20s with Al Capone and bootleggers). Just like when alcohol was made legal again, crime plummeted because the crime aspect is cut out of the equation. And if some hippy dude wants to grow some plants in his back yard, guess what? He's going to grow safe, natural stuff (not the synthetic stuff out on the streets) because he doesn't want to die, he just wants to relax and have fun.

Nailed it.

You are right to oppose the government controlled shops. When I was an active advocate of MMJ too many people tried to seduce legislators with, "Well you can tax it." Sure enough, the greedy political whores have taxed MJ so highly that the cartel's black market is still running full speed ahead because the criminals' MJ is cheaper than .gov/.zog MJ. There has also been extensive corruption in the award of dispensary licenses to the non-Latino (((cartel))).

In that vein, Humboldt County, part of California's Emerald Triangle, is a salient example. when MJ was illegal in California, the county embraced the illegal growers because they brought LOTS of spending into the county economy. Once California legalized recreational MJ the county's prosti-ticians got greedy. They enacted licensing fees, minimum $250,000 per year. The growers showed them their middle finger, refused licensing, armed up, and violence is at an all time high [pun intended].

Tradrabid admitted his licentious life. Now he is projecting his past on others. In that regard, he is like a reformed alcoholic who insists that non-alcoholics be tee-totallers. He'd rather see people suffer than admit that not everyone has his past problem. Too, he deludes himself that he sees reality though he is blind to the deadly failures of alcohol, drug, and gun prohibition. The guy couldn't do a risk/benfit analysis even if you donated a programmer and a super-computer.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #309 on:** March 14, 2022, 08:06:04 AM »

Quote from: Mark 79 on March 13, 2022, 09:59:54 PM

In your case (Last Tradhican), I support mandatory vaccination.

Well, that one quote explains why M79 promotes recreational use of marijuana to Catholics here on CI. Had he been so succinct from the beginning, it would have saved everyone a lot of time. But God willed it to play out as it did to show those that fell for his "expert advice" not to be so quick to fall next time for worldly secular nonsense. It is very difficult to know what a person is like on the internet because we can't see them and how they live, but M79 in one sentence finally revealed himself and what is behind what he promotes.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #310 on:** March 14, 2022, 08:16:15 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 13, 2022, 10:21:49 PM

And in the real world, you *should* know that getting illegal MJ is not hard and not expensive. Keeping MJ illegal actually increases crime and creates a blackmarket where criminals are incentivized to grow dangerous strands (which cause medical harm and most addictions) in order to make more profit.

That is what they said about abortion and now they have killed just in the USA over 60 million since they made it legal.

They create the problem, created a drug mafia which they control and give the appearance of fighting, so they can implant their solution, have everybody high and happy so they can be controlled.

Open your eyes, think Catholic. "Those who do not heed the lessons of history, are doomed to repeat it."

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #311 on:** March 14, 2022, 08:19:33 AM »

What is the purpose of smoking marijuana, confusing the mind?

DigitalLogos · « **Reply #312 on:** March 14, 2022, 08:28:02 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on March 14, 2022, 08:19:33 AM

What is the purpose of smoking marijuana, confusing the mind?

For one, it can help settle the mind of those with anxiety disorders (and I mean neurological, not those who experience the "feeling" once in a while) who live in a constant state of "confusion" already.

Minnesota · « **Reply #313 on:** March 14, 2022, 09:12:25 AM »

Quote from: Mark 79 on March 13, 2022, 10:52:36 PM

Nailed it.

You are right to oppose the government controlled shops. When I was an active advocate of MMJ too many people tried to seduce legislators with, "Well you can tax it." Sure enough, the greedy political whores have taxed MJ so highly that the cartel's black market is still running full speed ahead because the criminals' MJ is cheaper than .gov/.zog MJ. There has also been extensive corruption in the award of dispensary licenses to the non-Latino (((cartel))).

In that vein, Humboldt County, part of California's Emerald Triangle, is a salient example. when MJ was illegal in California, the county embraced the illegal growers because they brought LOTS of spending into the county economy. Once California legalized recreational MJ the county's prosti-ticians got greedy. They enacted licensing fees, minimum $250,000 per year. The growers showed them their middle finger, refused licensing, armed up, and violence is at an all time high [pun intended].

Tradrabid admitted his licentious life. Now he is projecting his past on others. In that regard, he is like a reformed alcoholic who insists that non-alcoholics be tee-totallers. He'd rather see people suffer than admit that not everyone has his past problem. Too, he deludes himself that he sees reality though he is blind to the deadly failures of alcohol, drug, and gun prohibition. The guy couldn't do a risk/benfit analysis even if you donated a programmer and a super-computer.

And you don't have to go that far to see the effects of the cartels as an Arizonan. Just cross the border into Sonora or most of Northern Mexico. Highest homicide rate in the world.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #314 on:** March 14, 2022, 09:25:38 AM »

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That is what they said about abortion and now they have killed just in the USA over 60 million since they made it legal.

Morally speaking, abortion cannot be compared to MJ. Abortion is always wrong, MJ is not. Apples-oranges.

For products/activities that are not inherently immoral (i.e. MJ, alcohol) Catholics should be promoting libertarian politics (i.e. less govt, individual responsibility). MJ laws don't stop anyone from getting it, just like guns laws don't stop criminals. MJ isn't inherently evil, just like guns aren't.

Author Topic: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics? (Read 59927 times)

Mark 79

Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?

Last Tradhican

Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?

Pax Vobis

Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?

Mark 79

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Gloria Tibi Domine

Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?

Pax Vobis

Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?

Mark 79

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DigitalLogos

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Mark 79

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Last Tradhican

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Last Tradhican

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Last Tradhican

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DigitalLogos

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Minnesota

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Pax Vobis

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