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Author Topic: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?  (Read 78339 times)

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Offline Tradman

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Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
« Reply #90 on: January 02, 2022, 08:20:55 AM »
Classic. Mind if I add that here?: https://www.logicalfallacies.org/
People who like to waste time either won't or can't engage in the discussion so they attempt to discredit the other guy or change the subject or introduce little nothings that have no bearing.  I really don't have time for that.   

Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
« Reply #91 on: January 02, 2022, 10:15:46 AM »
But I'm talking to someone who refuses truths about the nature of the Earth, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see you running from the truth on this issue also. It's the same mindset: I embrace and admit the truth, whatever that means and wherever it leads. You find ways and excuses to deny it, so you can avoid being some kind of ostracised "fringe", shunned by The World, which for you is a fate worse than death. Fine. Good luck in the future when the great persecution starts. Hopefully you won't be one of the first Catholics to cave.

You should  have put "" around the word 'truths'. As in '.... refuse "truths" about the nature of the Earth....'. That way it shows you're not that pretentious to assume you are immune from error. You aren't.... Right? This isnt to say you don't believe that your position is correct, obviously. 

People shouldn't be concerned with being fringe, no. But just cause you aren't concerned, it doesn't make you right in whatever issue you decide to hold to, just cause it's perceived more "fringe" by the world. If that was the case sedes would have sway over your R&R position because they are certainly considered more fringe by the world. If they're right, it's not the fringe perception that makes them right. 

Seems like lots of trads insulate themselves - not without reason- to the point of  being willing to become disconnected with reality to prove to themselves just how willing they are to follow the truth "where ever it may lead". There are dangers to these times and those dangers don't just come from the world, they can come from our own fallen nature. 


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
« Reply #92 on: January 02, 2022, 11:41:43 AM »
I think we need to put aside some of the Puritanical and political aspects of marijuana use and focus on the PRINCIPLE of why either MJ or alcohol use would be sinful or wrong.

It has to do with the alteration of the faculties.  When one gets to a point of losing control of one's higher faculties, the ability to reason, especially morally, one commits a grave sin by using the substance ... without sufficient reason.  So, for instance, if you're in extreme pain, there's nothing sinful about getting "high" with morphine or some other such drug.  So the only real differences, morally, between the two are 1) that you can get to that point a lot quicker with MJ than with alcohol ... and 2) possibly the legality.  Let's say, however, that we're in a state where recreation use is legal.

If one gets "tipsy" or slightly elated, then that could be a venial sin without sufficient reason.  Sacred Scripture itself states that "wine brings joy to the heart of man".  So even the induction of a bit of elation (what some would call "recreational" use has a place).  Jone says that small amounts might be indulged in without sin for proportionate reason for things like relaxing the nerves.

So there's a direct proportionality between the degree to which the higher faculties are effected and the justifying reason.  Complete loss of the faculties requires a grave reason, whereas a very slight impairment of the faculties would require a lesser reason.  And this could vary from individual to individual.  Some people might retain total control overthemselves with a bit of win or even MJ, whereas others might lose control and put themselves into occasions of sin.

I've never used MJ, so I wouldn't know whether it's possible to take a couple hits and just get a little tipsy while maintaining control of one's faculties, no different than if one indulged in a couple glasses of wine or beer.  But assuming that's possible, I would see no moral reason for entirely avoiding it.  MJ seems not to be addictive in the manner of opiates, but variouis "addictive personalitles" should probably cautioned to avoid it, just as those prone to alcoholism need to avoid alcohol altogether even where it might be justified for someone without the problem.  Even the tiniest amount of addictive opiates for recreational reasons would be a serious sin due to the risk of becoming hooked (which happens often) and the absolutely destructive impacts it could have on one's life.  I've also heard of people "micro-dosing" with MJ, where they barely feel any effect related to the impairment of their natural faculties.

Politically and historically, the major reason that MJ was outlawed was because some of the earliest motor vehicles ran on hemp oil, so Big Oil had to get rid of the competition, and they launched a major campaign to demonize it.  Then there were Puritanical movements to outlaw alcohol durign the Prohibition era that of course failed.

So, in summary, I don't see any reason that medical use of MJ would be sinful provided that it does provide relief for various ailments, and that might even include people who suffer from anxiety or other ailments and who might benefit fromt the relaxation effects (again assuming they would use small amounts to the point necessary to alleviate their condition).  Even a tiny amount could be justified for "recreational" use in the same way that it's OK to have a bit of wine or beer to lift one's spirits.

Offline Mark 79

  • Supporter
Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
« Reply #93 on: January 02, 2022, 11:47:33 AM »
People who like to waste time either won't or can't engage in the discussion so they attempt to discredit the other guy or change the subject or introduce little nothings that have no bearing.  I really don't have time for that. 
Won't discuss it? That is a LIE.

Meg asked for "a" study.

I posted dozens of studies, including reviews by the Institute of Medicine (IOM), National Academy of Science, and the University of California Center for Medical Cannabis Research, et al.

Meg looked at the titles and somehow channeled that the studies focused on benefits and not enough on "side-effects." —complete manure.  The IOM admitted their bias was against MJ, but like the AMA, was forced by the evidence to support medical MJ.

You, on the other hand stated that your "experience" was more important than the studies.

How is anyone supposed to have a rational discussion with anyone, like the $%^& rabbis, who just waves his/her hand and discards the evidence?

Worse, you and Meg both, like $%^&* rabbis, used a standard that you would apply apply against MJ ("sober") that you would not apply against alcohol. Double-standard.

Called on that, like you, Meg invoked her "experience" and her charism of reading the interior disposition of MJ users, as proving her "opinions."

What a joke, both of you, like a pair of $%^&* rabbis.

To write a series of 8 articles, I spent almost a year reviewing the peer-reviewed literature and that changed my previous opposition to MJ. Once again, here's my bibliography from that work.

It is current to 2011. Because the evidence was so solid, I have had no need to re-visit the literature for a deep-dive.

*******


Important reviews
University of California Center for Medical Cannabis Research—2010 Report to the Legislature
http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/images/pdfs/CMCR_REPORT_FEB17.pdf
Review on clinical studies with cannabis and cannabinoids 2005-2009. Hazecamp A and Grotenhermen F. Cannabinoids 2010;5(special issue):1-21.
www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/en_2010_01_special.pdf
Cannabinoids in medicine: A review of their therapeutic potential. Amar MB. Journal of Ethnopharmacology 105 (2006) 1–25.
http://www.ucla.edu.ve/dmedicin/departamentos/fisiologia/cannabinoidsRevPatologias.pdf
Emerging Clinical Applications for Cannabis and Cannabinoids: A Review of the Recent Scientific Literature, 2000 – 2010. Armentano P. NORML Foundation, Washington DC 2010.
http://norml.org/pdf_files/NORML_Clinical_Applications_for_Cannabis_and_Cannabinoids.pdf
Marijuana and Medicine: Assessing the Science Base. National Academy of Science Institute of Medicine, 1999
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6376
popularized in: Marijuana As Medicine? – The Science Behind the Controversy. Mack A and Joy J. National Academy of Science. National Academy Press, Washington DC 2000.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9586&page=R1
AIDS/HIV
University of California Center for Medical Cannabis Research—2010 Report to the Legislature
http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/images/pdfs/CMCR_REPORT_FEB17.pdf
Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV)
http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7485
“Marijuana and AIDS” in Marijuana As Medicine? – The Science Behind the Controversy. Mack A and Joy J. National Academy of Science. National Academy Press, Washington DC 2000.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9586&page=86
ALS (Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, Lou Gehrig's Disease)
Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS)
http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7004
Alzheimer's Disease
Alzheimer's Disease
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7003
Cachexia. Wasting syndrome
See sections 3.1 and 3.2 of Cannabinoids in medicine: A review of their therapeutic potential. Amar MB. Journal of Ethnopharmacology 105 (2006) 1–25.
http://www.ucla.edu.ve/dmedicin/departamentos/fisiologia/cannabinoidsRevPatologias.pdf
Cancer
Gliomas/Cancer
http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7008
“Marijuana and Cancer” in Marijuana As Medicine? – The Science Behind the Controversy. Mack A and Joy J. National Academy of Science. National Academy Press, Washington DC 2000.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9586&page=95
Cannabis and Cannabinoids (PDQ®). National Cancer Institute. 2011.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cannabis/healthprofessional/page1
Cardiovascular disease
The Potential for Clinical Use of Cannabinoids in Treatment
of Cardiovascular Diseases. Durst R and Lotan C. Cardiovascular Therapeutics 2011 Feb;29(1):17-22. doi: 10.1111/j.1755-5922.2010.00233.x. Epub 2010 Oct 14.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20946323
The emerging role of the endocannabinoid system in cardiovascular disease. Pacher P, Steffens S. Semin Immunopathol. 2009 Jun;31(1):63-77. Epub 2009 Apr 9.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/a04103g160h16450/fulltext.pdf
Cannabinoid receptors in atherosclerosis. Steffens S, Mach F. Curr Opin Lipidol. 2006 Oct;17(5):519-26.
http://journals.lww.com/co-lipidology/Abstract/2006/10000/Cannabinoid_receptors_in_atherosclerosis.5.aspx
Cannabinoid receptors in acute and chronic complications of atherosclerosis. Mach F, Montecucco F, Steffens S. Br J Pharmacol. 2008 January; 153(2): 290–298.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2219535/pdf/0707517a.pdf
Endocannabinoids and cannabinoid receptors in ischaemia-reperfusion injury and preconditioning. Pacher P, Haskó G. Br J Pharmacol. 2008 Jan;153(2):252-62. Epub 2007 Nov 19.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/sj.bjp.0707582/pdf
The role of the endocannabinoid system in atherosclerosis. Mach F, Steffens S. J Neuroendocrinol. 2008 May;20 Suppl 1:53-7.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2826.2008.01685.x/pdf
Cardiovascular Effects of Cannabis | Medicinal Cannabis Information. Independent Drug Monitoring Unit, United Kingdom, undated
http://www.idmu.co.uk/canncardio.htm
Crohns Disease
Gastrointestinal Disorders
http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7009
Endocannabinoid sysytem
The Endocannabinoid System as an Emerging Target of Pharmacotherapy. National Institute of Health: Pacher P, Bátkai S, Kunos G. Pharmacol Rev. 2006 Sep;58(3):389-462.
http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/58/3/389.full.pdf
Endocrine disease, diabetes
The emerging role of the endocannabinoid system in endocrine regulation and energy balance. Pagotto U, Marsicano G, Cota D, Lutz B, Pasquali R. Endocr Rev. 2006 Feb;27(1):73-100. Epub 2005 Nov 23.
http://fk.uwks.ac.id/elib/Arsip/Departemen/Biokimia/The%20Emerging%20Role%20of%20the%20Endocannabinoid%20System.pdf
Fibromyalgia
Nabilone for the Treatment of Pain in Fibromyalgia. Skrabek RQ, Galimova L, Ethans K, Perry D. J Pain. 2008 Feb;9(2):164-73. Epub 2007 Nov 5.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9gDyCVhqJSMJ:files.meetup.com/404848/2008_Nabilone-for-the-Treatment-of-Pain-in-Fibromyalgia.pdf+Nabilone+for+the+Treatment+of+Pain+in+Fibromyalgia&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjFGavzxEJkBjsOj_YyWPHuo5PRG034PLna8X6n3sXGT696PVuaEH15HF07xVpfV10wLPfon8-nZoD0RcJfU6LInnuqHOGpKDECN4oQ6OWBgGgwXWckH2QB31FTn1BZn0KX9U7A&sig=AHIEtbQlDN8uMzxJIm6KKL0POTJdhmbsvg
Delta-9-THC based monotherapy in fibromyalgia patients on experimentally induced pain, axon reflex flare, and pain relief. Schley M, Legler A, Skopp G, Schmelz M, Konrad C, Rukwied R. Curr Med Res Opin. 2006 Jul;22(7):1269-76.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16834825
Fibromyalgia
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7007
Glaucoma
American Glaucoma Society position statement: Marijuana and the treatment of glaucoma. American Glaucoma Society, Prepared by Henry Jampel, M.D., M.H.S., August 10, 2009
http://www.americanglaucomasociety.net/associations/5224/files/Marijuana%20and%20Glaucoma%20august%2030_BOD%20Approved%2010.23.09.pdf
Marijuana and Glaucoma” in Marijuana As Medicine? – The Science Behind the Controversy. Mack A and Joy J. National Academy of Science. National Academy Press, Washington DC 2000.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9586&page=124
Hepatitis C
Hepatitis C
http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7010
Marijuana effects, drug levels, DUI
Marijuana effect and delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol plasma level. Chiang CWN and Barnett G. Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics 1984 Aug;36(2):234-8.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6086207
Contact highs and urinary cannabinoids excretion after passive exposure to marijuana smoke. Cone EJ and Johnson RE. Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics 1986 Sep;40(3):247-56.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3017628
Do delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol concentrations indicate recent use in chronic cannabis users? Karschner EL, Schwilke EW, Lowe RH, Darwin WD, Pope HG, Herning R, Cadet JL, Huestis MA. Addiction. 2009 Dec;104(12):2041-8. Epub 2009 Oct 5.
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/reprint/49/7/1114
Developing limits for driving under cannabis. Grotenhermen F, Leson G, Berghaus G, Drummer OH, Krüger HP, Longo M, Moskowitz H, Perrine B, Ramaekers JG, Smiley A, Tunbridge R. Addiction 2007 Dec;102(12):1910-7. Epub 2007 Oct 4.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17916224
Urinary cannabinoid detection times after controlled oral administration of delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol to humans. Gustafson RA, Levine B, Stout PR, Klette KL, George MP, Moolchan ET, Huestis MA. Clin Chem. 2003 Jul;49(7):1114-24.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12816908
Editorial: Practical Challenges to Positive Drug Tests for Marijuana. ElSohly MA. Clin Chem. 2003 Jul;49(7):1037-8.
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/reprint/49/7/1037
Dose related risk of motor vehicle crashes after cannabis use. Ramaekers JG, Berghaus G, van Laar M, Drummer OH. Drug Alcohol Depend. 2004 Feb 7;73(2):109-19.
http://www.ukcia.org/research/DoseRelatedRiskOfCrashes.pdf
Tolerance and cross-tolerance to neurocognitive effects of THC and alcohol in heavy cannabis users. Ramaekers JG, Theunissen EL, de Brouwer M, Toennes SW, Moeller MR, Kauert G. Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2011 Mar;214(2):391-401. Epub 2010 Oct 30.
http://www.cannabistherapyinstitute.com/bills/dui/raemakers.etal.pdf
Cannabis and Driving: A Scientific and Rational Review. Armentano P. NORML Foundation, Washington DC 2010
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7459
Sex differences in the effects of marijuana on simulated driving performance. Anderson BM, Rizzo M, Block RI, Pearlson GD, O'Leary DS. J Psychoactive Drugs. 2010 Mar;42(1):19-30.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3033009/
Effects of THC on driving performance, physiological state and subjective feelings relative to alcohol. Ronen A, Gershon P, Drobiner H, Rabinovich A, Bar-Hamburger R, Mechoulam R, Cassuto Y, Shinar D. Accid Anal Prev. 2008 May;40(3):926-34. Epub 2007 Nov 26.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460360
Muscle Spasms
Dystonia
http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7006
“Marijuana and Muscle Spasticity” in Marijuana As Medicine? – The Science Behind the Controversy. Mack A and Joy J. National Academy of Science. National Academy Press, Washington DC 2000.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9586&page=106
Nausea
See sections 3.1 of Cannabinoids in medicine: A review of their therapeutic potential. Amar MB. Journal of Ethnopharmacology 105 (2006) 1–25.
http://www.ucla.edu.ve/dmedicin/departamentos/fisiologia/cannabinoidsRevPatologias.pdf
Pain
University of California Center for Medical Cannabis Research—2010 Report to the Legislature
http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/images/pdfs/CMCR_REPORT_FEB17.pdf
Chronic Pain
http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=7786
“Marijuana and Pain” in Marijuana As Medicine? – The Science Behind the Controversy. Mack A and Joy J. National Academy of Science. National Academy Press, Washington DC 2000.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9586&page=77#
Post traumatic Stress Disorder
Cannabinoid receptor activation in the basolateral amygdala blocks the effects of stress on the conditioning and extinction of inhibitory avoidance. Ganon-Elazar E, Akirav I. J Neurosci. 2009 Sep 9;29(36):11078-88.
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/29/36/11078.full.pdf+html
[Extinction of emotional response as a novel approach of pharmacotherapy of anxiety disorders]. Lehner M, Wisłowska-Stanek A, Płaznik A. Psychiatr Pol. 2009 Nov-Dec;43(6):639-53.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20209877
The Use of a Synthetic Cannabinoid in the Management of Treatment‐Resistant Nightmares in Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Fraser GA. CNS Neurosci Ther. 2009 Winter;15(1):84-8.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1755-5949.2008.00071.x/pdf
Public policy
Harm reduction-the cannabis paradox. Melamede R. Harm Reduct J. 2005 Sep 22;2:17.
http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/pdf/1477-7517-2-17.pdf
Seizures
See sections 3.7 of Cannabinoids in medicine: A review of their therapeutic potential. Amar MB. Journal of Ethnopharmacology 105 (2006) 1–25.
http://www.ucla.edu.ve/dmedicin/departamentos/fisiologia/cannabinoidsRevPatologias.pdf
“Marijuana and Neurological Disorders” in Marijuana As Medicine? – The Science Behind the Controversy. Mack A and Joy J. National Academy of Science. National Academy Press, Washington DC 2000.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9586&page=115



Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
« Reply #94 on: January 02, 2022, 11:52:48 AM »
Can I picture myself enjoying a glass of wine while my five year old plays nearby? Yes definitely.
Smoking a joint? Um, no.
Would I allow a friend of mine do it in front of any of my children? Negative.

But this "picturing of yourself" is largely conditioned culturally.  There's no substantial moral difference.  Wine CAN be a grave sin.  Is it therefore intrinsically impermissible?  As you rightly conclude, no.  Is it a "scandal" to use wine simply because many people abuse it and commit grave sins with it?  Same thing would be true of MJ.  If a child sees you drinking, concludes that there's nothing wrong with it morally, starts drinking, and eventually becomes an alcoholic, how's that different than if a person sees you taking a hit of MJ and starts using it in excess and then becomes regular user to the point of making it a grave sin.  I don't see any intrinsic morally-relevant difference between the two other than cultural perception.  It's demonized in our culture.  Just imagine a time where recreation use of marijuana were legalized in all 50 states, and it becomes common in the culture.  Then would it stil be wrong to have a hit or two in front of your children, provided you explain that you never use it to the point of getting high?