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Author Topic: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?  (Read 52676 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2021, 01:21:56 PM »
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    •             "Dare ga... Marku-nanjuuku san ?"
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #16 on: December 31, 2021, 01:27:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on December 31, 2021, 01:21:56 PM


                "Dare ga... Marku-nanjuuku san ?"

    はい。 私はT-11マシンガンを撃っている美しい日本の女の子から隠れています。

    (Yes. I'm hiding from a beautiful Japanese girl shooting a T-11 machine gun.)
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #17 on: December 31, 2021, 01:39:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 31, 2021, 01:21:11 PM
    Although this is off topic, it seems there are contradictory views for many reasons:

    Recreational use of Marijuana


    1. Opens the soul to demonic influence.
    2. Weakens moral judgement
    3. Promotes immorality
    4. Fosters narcissism
    5. Leads to moral pessimism
    6. Is socially and morally divisive
    7. Promotes laziness toward Catholic works
    8. Promotes disobedience to priests and the Church
    9. Promotes disobedience to secular authority
    10.  Is a safety issue for children who's parents use.
    11. Causes neglect, and abuse of children by parents who use
    12. Dulls sense of guilt and is counter to Sacrament of Confession
    13. Profanes the reception of the Eucharist
    14. Is falsely equated with moderate use of alcohol
    15. Often leads to use of other drugs
    16. Promotes secrecy and leads to animosity
    17. Promotes other crime
    18. Often destroys relationships
    19. Impedes the desire to attain heaven
    20. Leads to a liberal and worldly mindset
    21. Retards emotions
    22. Wastes opportunities for good
    23 Impedes Christ's mandate to evangelize
    24 Denies Scripture's command to stay sober
    25 Denies the modest conduct of Our Lady
    26 Leads to the unforgivable sin of despair
    27 Is often its own object of worship
    28. Causes certain kinds of brain damage
    29. Often leads to other addictions
    30. Inhibits holiness
    31. Is well founded in paganism, abhorred in Christendom
    32. Is proven by all the above to be a "sacrament" of the diabolic
     
    This list is by no means exhaustive, barely even scratches the surface. After it exceeded 21, I figured this was enough to get the picture.  If anyone disagrees, present your argument.  Whatever you do, don't smoke weed, rather, do penance for the salvation of souls. 



    I have a sibling who has been addicted to marijuana for 30 years. I can attest that the above is true. Except that I would add that extreme laziness and lack of motivation to do ANYTHING is one of the main problems with marijuana use. At this time my sibling is in danger of being homeless......again. We've taken him in to live with us several times, but he never changes. He won't give up the pot.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #18 on: December 31, 2021, 01:49:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 31, 2021, 01:39:30 PM
    I have a sibling who has been addicted to marijuana for 30 years. I can attest that the above is true. Except that I would add that extreme laziness and lack of motivation to do ANYTHING is one of the main problems with marijuana use. At this time my sibling is in danger of being homeless......again. We've taken him in to live with us several times, but he never changes. He won't give up the pot.
    Sorry to hear that. My brother, too, was a huge pothead.  He split from his wife, left his 3 kids, wound up in jail multiple times for all types of drug use and now lives in the forest in Oregon somewhere. He believes he is a liaison between the devil and God and is no longer Catholic.  For years I said the daily rosary with him.  What a loss!

    Whoever advocates the use of marijuana ought to consider whether the persons who will actually use it won't be tempted to do bigger drugs.  Since no one can do that, people ought to hush up about the use marijuana and it's gateway to hell. 
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #19 on: December 31, 2021, 02:13:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 31, 2021, 01:21:11 PM
    (A) I am not interested in a protracted argument on a matter that is as "settled" as anything gets in medicine.
    (B) I carefully distinguished between medical and recreational use.
    (C) I noted the risks, physical and spiritual.
    (D) The calculation of risk/benefit needs to be individualized.


    Although this is off topic, it seems there are contradictory views for many reasons:

    Recreational use of Marijuana


    1. Opens the soul to demonic influence.
    2. Weakens moral judgement
    3. Promotes immorality

    1-3: Potential loss of inhibition is dose-related, just as it is with alcohol. It is a manageable risk, just as it is with alcohol.


    4. Fosters narcissism
    5. Leads to moral pessimism

    4-5: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertions that I reject.

    6. Is socially and morally divisive

    6: Freeing slaves was socially and morally divisive and it was the right thing to do.
     
    7. Promotes laziness toward Catholic works

    7: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject.

    8. Promotes disobedience to priests and the Church

    8: Rubbish. There is no authoritative proscription explicit to MJ. MJ must be considered under the same moral theology as alcohol.

    9. Promotes disobedience to secular authority

    9: What part of "increasingly legalized" and "no longer a gateway to criminal world" don't you understand?

    10.  Is a safety issue for children who's parents use.
    11. Causes neglect, and abuse of children by parents who use

    10-11: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject. Cf. alcohol.

    12. Dulls sense of guilt and is counter to Sacrament of Confession

    12: Potential loss of inhibition is dose-related, just as it is with alcohol. It is a manageable risk, just as it is with alcohol.

    13. Profanes the reception of the Eucharist

    13: If an honest risk/benefit assessment makes its use sinless, there is no profanation.

    14. Is falsely equated with moderate use of alcohol

    14: CORRECT! Medically, alcohol is much less beneficial and much more toxic.
     
    15. Often leads to use of other drugs

    15: Long argued. Largely related to an illegal substance being obtained from criminals.

    16. Promotes secrecy and leads to animosity
    17. Promotes other crime
    18. Often destroys relationships
    19. Impedes the desire to attain heaven
    20. Leads to a liberal and worldly mindset
    21. Retards emotions

    16-21: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertions that I reject.

    22. Wastes opportunities for good

    22: Using a beneficial medicine increases opportunities for good.

    23 Impedes Christ's mandate to evangelize

    23: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject.

    24 Denies Scripture's command to stay sober

    24: As with alcohol.

    25 Denies the modest conduct of Our Lady
    26 Leads to the unforgivable sin of despair
    27 Is often its own object of worship

    25-27: Gratuitous, subjective, evidence-free assertion that I reject.
    28. Causes certain kinds of brain damage

    28: Benefits certain types of "brain damage," e.g., multiple sclerosis, dystonias, et al.


    29. Often leads to other addictions

    25: see #15. Argument from Repetition.

    30. Inhibits holiness

    30: see #'s 1-3, 7-8, 12-13, 22-27. Argument from Repetition.

    31. Is well founded in paganism, abhorred in Christendom

    31: Pagans also breathe air and eat food. Ad hominem/guilt by association.

    32. Is proven by all the above to be a "sacrament" of the diabolic

    32: see #'s 1-31
     
    This list is by no means exhaustive, barely even scratches the surface. After it exceeded 21, I figured this was enough to get the picture.  If anyone disagrees, present your argument.  Whatever you do, don't smoke weed, rather, do penance for the salvation of souls.

    No. Your list is not exhaustive, just exhausting in its repetition of logical fallacies and utter lack of evidence.

    Yes. Do penance.




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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #20 on: December 31, 2021, 02:17:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 31, 2021, 01:39:30 PM
    I have a sibling .…

    Anecdotal. And I did give you a thumbs-down on that one.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #21 on: December 31, 2021, 02:18:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 31, 2021, 01:49:42 PM
    …My brother, too, was a huge pothead.… tempted to do bigger drugs.  Since no one can do that, people ought to hush up about the use marijuana and it's gateway to hell.

    Anecdotal. Also see #'s 1-33 above.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #22 on: December 31, 2021, 02:39:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on December 31, 2021, 02:17:42 PM
    Anecdotal. And I did give you a thumbs-down on that one.

    Why am I not surprised? ;) Of course you gave a thumbs down. I wouldn't expect anything less.

    However....subjective personal experience is quite often anecdotal. No surprise there.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #23 on: December 31, 2021, 02:40:00 PM »
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    • I'm not particularly strong on the pot issue, either direction. I've heard all the "pros" and I certainly can't shoot any of them down.

    My only point was: look at the public posting history of "roscoe", who rather controversially promotes this particular herb.

    As the last several posts PROVE, it is still QUITE controversial in Catholic circles, to say the least.

    Human nature being human nature, few people will click on "show posts" under roscoe's profile. I'm just helping them out a bit to gather the necessary information to make a more accurate assessment of his opinion.

    We had a member on here a year ago post something against a priest. Turns out, the member in question was literally committed to a mental hospital. I think that's pretty relevant information when weighing "could it be true?" or "is that priest to be avoided or not"? Turns out, he later recanted and was relieved when I posted a followup to the thread. He asked for the thread to be taken down, but I couldn't, as the pillow full of feathers had already been burst asunder on a high windy hill, and now I needed to keep the thread up so people could quench ALL nagging doubts about said priest, because the allegations were unfounded, ravings of a mental patient, later retracted, etc.

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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #24 on: December 31, 2021, 02:51:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 31, 2021, 02:39:30 PM
    Why am I not surprised? ;) Of course you gave a thumbs down. I wouldn't expect anything less.

    Subjective personal experience is quite often anecdotal. No surprise there.

    Anecdotal evidence in scientific inquiry is only useful in identifying possible research leads.

    In the case of your (plural) pothead relatives, that research lead shibboleth has been so thoroughly examined and your (plural) hypothesis rejected that the medical establishment has begrudgingly acknowledged that the medical benefits outweigh the medical risks per se.

    Certainly there are some people of weakened mental makeup, perverted morality, and/or raised in dysfunctional families. Such people are indeed at increased risk of MJ and alcohol and pornography abuse and more likely to have marital breakup, criminality, and sinfulness. Consideration of such propensities should be part of the risk/benefit calculus before embarking on MJ use.

    I advocate MJ's proper medical use. Recreationally, I'd rather see someone smoke MJ than drink alcohol. In no rational world is that a call for anyone lay around smoking weed all day and then spend all night at an orgy.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #25 on: December 31, 2021, 02:57:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 31, 2021, 02:40:00 PM
    … it is still QUITE controversial in Catholic circles…

    The relevant moral theology is not controversial.

    Only weighting the risk/benefits is "controversial," though less controversial by the day.

    I am quite happy to let Meg and Tradman be teetotalers of both MJ and alcohol (gotta be consistent!) and I will pray for the rescue of their "pothead" loved ones.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #26 on: December 31, 2021, 03:12:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on December 31, 2021, 02:57:07 PM
    The relevant moral theology is not controversial.

    Only weighting the risk/benefits is "controversial," though less controversial by the day.

    I am quite happy to let Meg and Tradman be teetotalers of both MJ and alcohol (gotta be consistent!) and I will pray for the rescue of their "pothead" loved ones.

    I'm not a teetotaler. It's not really a Catholic thing to be.

    If I recall correctly, it was Fr. Crane (whom some here don't like, and I understand why) who gave a good comparison, in a sermon, of alcohol and marijuana. Alcohol is used for several reasons. However, it is considered appropriate, by the Church, to use alcohol in moderation. Getting so drunk as to lose control of one's senses is a mortal sin. Getting slightly drunk is a venial sin. However, alcohol if used to just relax is fine. Pot, on the other hand (as Fr. Crane said) is used mainly to get high.

    Of course there are medical reasons for using pot, but that excuse is over-used today in order to justify its use, in my opinion. I expect that your opinion, Mark, will be different. That's okay. 
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #27 on: December 31, 2021, 04:03:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on December 31, 2021, 01:21:11 PM
    Although this is off topic, it seems there are contradictory views for many reasons:

    Recreational use of Marijuana


    1. Opens the soul to demonic influence.
    2. Weakens moral judgement
    3. Promotes immorality
    4. Fosters narcissism
    5. Leads to moral pessimism
    6. Is socially and morally divisive
    7. Promotes laziness toward Catholic works
    8. Promotes disobedience to priests and the Church
    9. Promotes disobedience to secular authority
    10.  Is a safety issue for children who's parents use.
    11. Causes neglect, and abuse of children by parents who use
    12. Dulls sense of guilt and is counter to Sacrament of Confession
    13. Profanes the reception of the Eucharist
    14. Is falsely equated with moderate use of alcohol
    15. Often leads to use of other drugs
    16. Promotes secrecy and leads to animosity
    17. Promotes other crime
    18. Often destroys relationships
    19. Impedes the desire to attain heaven
    20. Leads to a liberal and worldly mindset
    21. Retards emotions
    22. Wastes opportunities for good
    23 Impedes Christ's mandate to evangelize
    24 Denies Scripture's command to stay sober
    25 Denies the modest conduct of Our Lady
    26 Leads to the unforgivable sin of despair
    27 Is often its own object of worship
    28. Causes certain kinds of brain damage
    29. Often leads to other addictions
    30. Inhibits holiness
    31. Is well founded in paganism, abhorred in Christendom
    32. Is proven by all the above to be a "sacrament" of the diabolic
     
    This list is by no means exhaustive, barely even scratches the surface. After it exceeded 21, I figured this was enough to get the picture.  If anyone disagrees, present your argument.  Whatever you do, don't smoke weed, rather, do penance for the salvation of souls. 

    The above is a personal opinion & does not come from any legal Church Authority. Can MJ be abused?-- of course.. :popcorn:
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #28 on: December 31, 2021, 04:15:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on December 31, 2021, 02:57:07 PM
    The relevant moral theology is not controversial.

    Only weighting the risk/benefits is "controversial," though less controversial by the day.


    Perhaps.

    But let's be honest -- if it came out that a prominent Traditional priest or bishop regularly "partook" of "the herb" there would be a ****storm on the interwebz, and you know it.

    The jury is definitely out on this one.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #29 on: December 31, 2021, 04:17:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 31, 2021, 03:12:46 PM
    I'm not a teetotaler. It's not really a Catholic thing to be.

    If I recall correctly, it was Fr. Crane (whom some here don't like, and I understand why) … then why mention him as though he is an authority on anything?

    What is "slightly drunk"? Is it sinful to be giggly? ebullient? relaxed?

    Recreational MJ should be judged by the same moral standard as alcohol, not by some selective subjective sour-faced irrational emotional prejudice.

    This one is so qualified as to be amusing: 


    Quote
    Of course there are medical reasons for using pot, but that excuse is over-used today in order to justify its use, in my opinion



    Let's parse it while trying to avoid laughing.

    "Of course there are medical reasons for using pot…" • Suddenly "of course" there is medical reason. Gee, an actual fact recognized. Progress.

    "…but that excuse is over-used today…" • How the dickens do you know that? Can you read hearts, minds, and souls? Bilocate! Right now!

    "in order to justify its use…" • Again doubling down on your charism and saintly perspicacity. You not only know that it is "over-used," but also can read a person's interior disposition as the intent to "justify" its use. Seriously, bilocate! Right now!

    "…in my opinion." Ahhhh… you have a baseless opinion. Shocking, I say, simply shocking.
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