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Author Topic: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority  (Read 9508 times)

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Offline LeDeg

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Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2021, 11:36:27 PM »
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  • Do you think Il Papa Leo XIII was (is) a ' liberal'? :popcorn:
    Answer the question and stop being cantankerous. Yes or no, did you read it?
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #61 on: October 27, 2021, 12:02:04 AM »
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  • Yes
    I answered your question. Pls answer mine- do u think Pope Leo XIII was(is) a 'Liberal'? :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #62 on: October 27, 2021, 12:15:31 AM »
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  • Yes
    I answered your question. Pls answer mine- do u think Pope Leo XIII was(is) a 'Liberal'? :popcorn:
    From the article and accurate.

    “liberal” in the 19th century meant Catholics who wanted to compromise with the Liberal world created by the Masonic French revolution. This terminology and its meaning is similar but also different from the term “Liberal” as used in English to refer to churchmen alive today.

    No, I don't think he was Liberal in the way you are implying. 

    I do think he made a big mistake by thinking that the Masonic Republics could be reconciled with the Church and maintain some semblance of unity of Church and State. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #63 on: October 27, 2021, 06:48:33 AM »
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  • Good analysis.

    I read a Pope Leo XIII biography that offered no hint of scandals but explained the enormous political pressure the Pope was under from Germany & France.

    It seemed logical that the Pope would try to defend his papacy by surrounding himself with family & friends.

    But, it looks like both Rampolla and Newman were major management oversights, since we realize a century later they were Church infiltrators.

    I think Rampolla’s story needs further research.  His ascension as the Vatican Secretary of State was surely linked to the Divine intervention prompting the St. Michael prayer.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline aegis

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #64 on: October 27, 2021, 07:43:18 AM »
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  • But, it looks like both Rampolla and Newman were major management oversights, since we realize a century later they were Church infiltrators.
    Newman was a infiltrator? wow
    𝖅𝖊𝖑𝖔 𝖟𝖊𝖑𝖆𝖙𝖚𝖘 𝖘𝖚𝖒 𝖕𝖗𝖔 𝕯𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖔 𝕯𝖊𝖔 𝖊𝖝𝖊𝖗𝖈𝖎𝖙𝖚𝖚𝖒.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #65 on: October 27, 2021, 08:07:28 AM »
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  • Newman was a infiltrator? wow

    There’s a lot on him, but briefly, he was a jew, who never renounced his Protestant books. Serious evidence of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
    He rebelled against Bl. Pope Pius IX’s “Syllabus of Errors”.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #66 on: October 27, 2021, 08:25:13 AM »
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  • Please!

    This line of thinking leads Catholics to literal protestantism. "The Church was corrupted a few years after Our Lord's Ascension..." or "The Catholic Church corrupted Christianity by adding elements of Roman paganism..." I'm serious -- these are literally protestant beliefs!

    But even when they stop short of such protestant heresy, they are seeking perfection among a fallen people (mankind). You ain't gonna find it. No, not even in the Papacy.

    Like that handful of idiots who think the Church went into eclipse 500 years ago -- they anathematize even St. Pius X.

    I think another idiot even condemns St. Thomas Aquinas. It's a slippery slope once you go down the path of error.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #67 on: October 27, 2021, 08:35:29 AM »
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  • Quote
    I read a Pope Leo XIII biography that offered no hint of scandals but explained the enormous political pressure the Pope was under from Germany & France.

    It seemed logical that the Pope would try to defend his papacy by surrounding himself with family & friends.
    "Political Pressure" from Germany and France, eh?  And who were the "periti" (so-called experts) who started V2?  None other than the Cardinal masons from Germany and France.


    Pope Leo was the pope directly before Bl Pius IX, who was imprisoned in the Vatican by the masons.  The masons thought that they could pressure Pope Leo to be their Pius XII (i.e. start watering down the Faith) and they were pretty sure Bl Pius IX was going to be their JohnXXIII and give them V2.  Instead, Leo resisted the pressure and Bl Pius IX converted from his early liberal days.  Then Pope St Pius X came afterwards and *BOOM*, he set the Church straight (for the short term).  The Italian masons have openly stated that Pope St Pius X delayed their plans by over 50 years. 

    When you read history, it's amazing how crazy the times were in the late 1800s.  Not many people realize how close we were to having V2 in the early 1900s!  The Masons were openly in control of everything.  The Church infiltration started in the 1800s!


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #68 on: October 27, 2021, 09:02:06 AM »
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  • The Church infiltration started in the 1800s!

    Yes, as long as you recognize that the Crisis in the Church didn't start until Vatican II. Not a day sooner.

    If any of us were transported back to an American city in 1962, and failed to go to Mass at some Catholic parish that following Sunday, it would absolutely be a MORTAL SIN that would send us to hell if we died without confessing it. Unless we had some excuse (illness). Lack of transportation would be a difficult one, since parishes were usually within walking distance and most people DID have private vehicles and/or public transportation.

    But imperfection in the Church started before Our Lord even left this earth -- remember when Our Lord made St. Peter head of the Apostles? And then on Holy Thursday St. Peter denied Our Lord? Then, just a few years later, St. Paul had to resist St. Peter -- the reigning pope -- to the face, "because he was to be blamed"?

    Anything involving human beings is going to be slipshod, zig-zagging, full of twists, turns, errors, and corrections. It's like trying to herd cats. Human beings are walking bundles of imperfection.

    For the philosophers and big-picture lovers among us, Bp. Williamson taught us that the high-point of civilization, the Church, Christendom, was around 1270-1350 with St. Thomas Aquinas, in the Literature world right around Dante. After that, it was a long slow descent to the Protestant revolt, the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, destruction of Catholic Europe, until today when even the natural law is being attacked. You know, where 25% of the children in some classrooms claiming to be transsɛҳuąƖ, where drag queens read to children in public libraries.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #69 on: October 27, 2021, 09:52:50 AM »
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  • There’s a lot on him, but briefly, he was a jew, who never renounced his Protestant books. Serious evidence of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
    He rebelled against Bl. Pope Pius IX’s “Syllabus of Errors”.
    As an aside, Michael Davies relied much for his own work on St Athanasius on the research done by ++Newman.....while ++Newman was an Anglican!

    Much of that work by ++Newman was debunked by his contemporaries in Rome.

    And yet, Davies work is the basis of many trad Catholics views on Pope Liberius and the Arian crisis. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #70 on: October 27, 2021, 11:15:23 AM »
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  • For the philosophers and big-picture lovers among us, Bp. Williamson taught us that the high-point of civilization, the Church, Christendom, was around 1270-1350 with St. Thomas Aquinas, in the Literature world right around Dante. After that, it was a long slow descent to the Protestant revolt, the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, destruction of Catholic Europe, until today when even the natural law is being attacked. 
     
    The greatest exponent of scholastic philosophy was St Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) whose school of thought is named Thomism, a form of scholastic wisdom that has received the special approbation of popes and councils of the Church up to Pope John Paul II that is. To St Thomas, Aristotle was ‘the philosopher;’ To Dante Alighieri (1265-1321) Aristotle was il maestro di color che sanno, the master of those that know, but St Thomas was fiamma benedetta, a flame of heavenly wisdom, wiser even than Aristotle.

    ‘Dante was a great verbal musician and his poetry reflects that. As you read it you will get a sense of the truth the man is telling. His vision is extraordinary. It is thoroughly Catholic. And that is why it is gone. That is why you have not read it. It is unequivocally Catholic and loaded with Catholic theology. The modern world hates all things Catholic, so the modern world secretly despises Dante. They will praise him but go out of their way to ensure that few ever read him. I can think of few better ways to introduce intelligent young people to the Faith than to sit them down with Dante and go through it, canto by canto. The awe and wonder of what is being explained, and the vision of Dante are powerful things. Reading the poem is a personal journey…. Art has always existed as a manifestation of the human spirit. As Catholics, however, we also know that art has also served as an extension of the glories of the Faith. I insist on reminding you that those beautiful creations that we know as the glories of Western art grow out of the Mass. This is as true of the architecture of the great cathedrals as it is of the great paintings. When western art dawns after the classical age, it dawns with magnificent paintings. Music takes on a life of its own after it begins to grow out of the Gregorian chant. Even drama itself, after the Greeks, grows largely out of the liturgy…. Dante comes from a specific and well-constituted worldview. It is important to understand that modern man, educated in modern schools, goes out at night, looks at the night sky, and defines his world differently than the medievals. They are looking at the same stars, but not the same “thing.” Modern man first sees a scientific universe; he sees named stars at such-and-such light-years away in specific galaxies or solar systems. There is a feeling of understanding due to modern science. And I think it’s fair to say that, for many moderns, there is a feeling of insignificance; what are we compared to the universe? It is all big, dark, and empty; there’s nothing out there but matter, gasses, rocks, planets. All seems accidental. So the average modern man goes inside to drink, watch TV, and eat junk food to escape the harsh reality. Medieval man, looking at the same night sky, would first see complete order. This is not from the viewpoint of science, but that of God. There were the nine spheres which made music as they moved, but they were all created by a Creator with a specific order. It was full and rich, not empty. Medieval man knew his place; he did not consider himself insignificant since he was a son of God, created for a specific purpose, playing an integral part in the created order. As a result, he would go to Mass and raise his family, and concern himself with whether there would be enough potatoes or whether the plague would come around that year. He had real fears, but not the empty angst of modern man. As Dante wrote: “The glory of the One Who moves all things penetrates the entire universe, reflecting in one part more and in another less.” As we soar upwards, we eventually reach the Empyrean where the Trinity dwells. First, we move through the nine spheres. At the top, the ninth sphere, or ninth heaven, we find the Primum Mobile, that which moves all things, that perfect sphere which causes the other inferior spheres to move. Notice that Dante, in devising the entire Divine Comedy, took that which was known in his own time. There is a sense in the Inferno that we are delving into the bowels of the Earth. Think of the fire, the stone, and the dangerous sense of climbing downwards into the Earth until we reach the core of ice. Then we climb Mount Purgatory, on an island in the Southern Hemisphere. When we get to the Paradiso, we soar upwards through the heavens as they were known to the medieval mind. What Dante used as his model of the heavens was the known astronomical model of his day. We begin with the Earth and soar outward from there. What is moving all these heavens is [God]… If you are going to study cosmology, not modern astronomy but the medieval idea of order of the spheres, this study of cosmic order will move you to God, Who is perfection. The vision will be complete and perfect if you can grasp it. But if you are going to look at Earth, where we live, you are going to see inadequacy, the failures of fallen man, and hence, earthly disorder….Dante lived in an age of Faith. He still felt he had trouble expressing it. The best the modern Catholic artist can do is to give a little hint of the Purgatorio vision; that is how far gone we are. For most of us even to attempt to grasp the notion of Paradise seems impossible; it lies outside our age that we are forced to feel frustration.’ ---   Professor David Allen White: Dante, The Angelus, June 2010 – January 2011


    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #71 on: October 27, 2021, 11:53:44 AM »
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  • Yes, as long as you recognize that the Crisis in the Church didn't start until Vatican II. Not a day sooner.

     
    Matthew, are you serious?
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #72 on: October 27, 2021, 12:39:08 PM »
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  • From the article and accurate.

    “liberal” in the 19th century meant Catholics who wanted to compromise with the Liberal world created by the Masonic French revolution. This terminology and its meaning is similar but also different from the term “Liberal” as used in English to refer to churchmen alive today.

    No, I don't think he was Liberal in the way you are implying.

    I do think he made a big mistake by thinking that the Masonic Republics could be reconciled with the Church and maintain some semblance of unity of Church and State.

    This has been addressed MUCHO TIMES IN THE PAST-- pay attention.

    It was NOT POSSIBLE to restore the Monarchy because the Bonapartist & Bourbon factions were AT EACH OTHERS THROATS.

    The ralleiment(sp?) was meant to rally French Republicans TO THE CHURCH-- & it was somewhat successful.

    The Church prefers a Monarchy but is not averse to working w/ other forms of government. Examples would be the Venetian & Florentine Republics. :popcorn:

    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #73 on: October 27, 2021, 12:57:41 PM »
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  • The idea that Newman or Rampolla are 'infiltrators' is trash...

    :incense:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Leo XIII: The First Liberal Pope Who Went Beyond His Authority
    « Reply #74 on: October 27, 2021, 01:33:09 PM »
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  • Quote
    Yes, as long as you recognize that the Crisis in the Church didn't start until Vatican II. Not a day sooner.
    ?  I guess it depends how you define "crisis".  An infiltration, an attack from within, is a crisis, in my book.  Even if the effects weren't seen until decades later.