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Author Topic: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"  (Read 1518 times)

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Offline sedevacantist

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John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
« on: August 05, 2017, 02:00:21 PM »
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  • We’ve heard it said a hundred times: “Vatican II was not an Ecuмenical Council because John XXIII called it a ‘Pastoral Council’ in his opening speech.”

    It is undoubtedly one of the great mysteries of the age that this fairy tale has survived unchallenged for so many decades – even among Traditionalists. Perhaps in one sense, its survival bears witness to the Devil’s power of influence over souls today. On a deeper and more personal level, however, it bears the mark of a most severe warning: If the ONLY reason you swallowed this bold-faced lie was because your hierarchy said it was true, then know that you are an ideal candidate for the great “Falling Away” prophesied by St. Paul. And if you think I’m exaggerating…. just wait.

    So let’s cut to the chase. What exactly did John XXIII call Vatican II in his opening speech? Read it for yourself. Beginning with the very first paragraph:

    “Today, Venerable Brethren, is a day of joy for Mother Church: through God's most kindly providence the longed-for day has dawned for the solemn opening of the Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council, here at St. Peter’s shrine.”

    Later on, he does it again:

    "This twenty-first Ecuмenical Council can draw upon the most effective and valued assistance of experts in every branch of sacred science, in the practical sphere of the apostolate, and in administration.”

    And again:

    “We are convinced that the time spent in preparing for this Ecuмenical Council was in itself an initial token of grace, a gift from heaven.”

    And again:

    “The major interest of the Ecuмenical Council is this: that the sacred heritage of Christian truth be safeguarded and expounded with greater efficacy.”

    And again:

    “The decision to hold an ecuмenical council came to Us in the first instance in a sudden flash of inspiration.”

    And just in case someone might try to argue that John XXIII didn’t mean “Ecuмenical” in the traditional sense of the word, the following quote from the same speech proves that he understands perfectly well what kind of council he’s talking about:

    “A positive proof of the Catholic Church's vitality is furnished by every single council held in the long course of the centuries—by the twenty ecuмenical councils as well as by the many thousands of memorable regional and provincial ones emblazoned on the scroll of history.”

    Yep, he understands perfectly well what an “Ecuмenical Council” is. He even tells us exactly how many such councils have been held throughout the history of the Church – twenty in all. Below he substitutes the term “General Council” for “Ecuмenical”, then goes on to explain the authority of such a council (capitalizations are mine):

    “We address you, therefore, as Christ's vicar, and We naturally begin THIS GENERAL COUNCIL by setting it in its historical context.”

    “No study of human history during these twenty centuries of Christendom can fail to take note of the evidence of this EXTRAORDINARY TEACHING AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH as voiced in her GENERAL COUNCILS.”

    There you have it – the Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council was to be an exercise in the Church’s extraordinary teaching authority. In fact, according to John XXIII, the exercise of this authority was the very purpose of the council:

    “And now the Church must once more reaffirm that teaching authority of hers which never fails, but will endure until the end of time. For that was Our reason for calling this most authoritative assembly…”

    So then, not only does he repeatedly call Vatican II an “Ecuмenical” council, but he reminds us in no uncertain terms of the extraordinary teaching authority emanating from that “most authoritative assembly”. But again, don’t take my word for it. Read the speech for yourself. And while you’re at it, have a look at Paul VI’s closing speech. No less than NINE times does he refer to Vatican II as an “Ecuмenical Council” – twice as the “Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council”; twice as the “21st Ecuмenical Council”; four times as just an “ecuмenical council”; and once as simply “ecuмenical”. All told between the two speeches, Vatican II was referred to as “Ecuмenical” 14 times – not including the “General Council” statement by John XXIII.

    So much for the “Pastoral Council” myth. It seems Vatican II was intended to be “Ecuмenical” from the very start. By the way, for some mysterious reason, your hierarchy also neglected to tell you that following the “Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council”, Paul VI “solemnly ratified” all 16 of its docuмents – using the EXACT SAME AUTHORITATIVE LANGUAGE that real popes have traditionally used to solemnly ratify true Ecuмenical councils in the past. And no wonder – for both he and John XXIII were very clear about counting Vatican II among the 20 solemn Ecuмenical councils of the past.

    That’s right… From beginning to end, everything was done precisely according to the Church’s protocol for true ecuмenical councils. And why? Because that’s exactly what it was intended to be. Your leaders said it themselves, 14 times! From the opening to the closing speech, to the “solemn ratification” of all 16 docuмents, both men manifested EVERY intention of holding a true and “most authoritative” Ecuмenical Council.

    Nevertheless, the important question is not so much “What kind of council was Vatican II intended to be?” No. The important question is this: “Why was the entire Catholic world lied to in the first place?” This is the question we need to be asking ourselves. What conceivable reason could there be for the hierarchy to perpetuate a bold-faced lie regarding the authoritative nature of Vatican II?

    The answer is simple: Sometime after the close of the council, it dawned on the Puppetmasters that if educated Catholics discovered the truth – that not only was Vatican II intended to be Ecuмenical from the very start; but more importantly, that its 16 docuмents (full of heresy) were “solemnly ratified” by Paul VI – then those same educated Catholics would know for certain that Paul VI could not have been a true pope. The reason being, of course, according to the Dogma of Papal Infallibility (Vatican Council of 1870) it’s impossible for a true pope to solemnly promulgate heresy. Ergo, Paul VI could not have been a true pope. THIS is the primary reason why the “Pastoral Council” lie was spread. THIS is what the Puppetmasters were hiding – the validity of Paul VI’s “Pontificate”.

    You see, if faithful Catholics had realized the truth, the repercussions would have been catastrophic – for the Puppetmasters, that is. For the faithful, such a revelation would have been a tremendous relief; and would have answered many puzzling questions. But for the enemy, it would have been a cataclysmic disaster. Just imagine if you will, what would happen if Catholics throughout the world suddenly realized Paul VI was an antipope. Without even delving into the theological implications of the docuмents’ heresies, or the new and apostate Mission of “Ecuмenism” which the council spawned, what would happen to the Church’s hierarchy? What would become of all those “priests” (such as Francis Bergoglio) ordained under Paul VI’s newly revised “Sacrament of Holy Orders”? Or the 32,000 real priests he “laicized” so they could return to the secular life and get married? Oops. And what about all those “bishops” consecrated under Paul VI’s newly revised Rite of Episcopal Consecration – not the least of which included Fr. Joseph Ratzinger (a.k.a. Benedict XVI)? What would happen if everyone suddenly realized the hierarchy was made up of nothing more than laymen?

    And what about the ordinary laymen themselves? What would become of all those souls “baptized” under Paul VI’s newly revised “Sacrament of Baptism”? Or all those who received invalid confessions, confirmations, and sacramental Last Rites at the hands of ordinary laymen dressed up as priests? And let’s not even get into the “New Mass” Paul VI promulgated, complete with its newly revised formula of Consecration. Certainly these are not minor issues. Not by a long shot. No, with his “solemn ratification” of Vatican II, and the subsequent changes that ensued, Paul VI literally turned the Catholic world upside down. In fact, his “pontificate” ALL but buried Catholicism.

    Then again, isn’t that precisely what the Puppetmasters planned? Remember the “Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita”? Or the arrogant boast made in the late 1800’s by Fr. Roca, a secret Masonic infiltrator excommunicated by Pope Leo XIII:

    “You must have a new dogma, a new religion, a new ministry, and new rituals that very closely resemble those of the surrendered Church. The divine cult directed by the liturgy, ceremonies, rituals, and regulations of the Roman Catholic Church will shortly undergo transformation at an ecuмenical council.”

    Catholicism will shortly undergo transformation at an ecuмenical council. You must have new rituals that closely resemble those of the true Church. You MUST have a new religion. Amazing. If he wasn’t a psychopathic Devil-worshipping Freemason, I’d think he was the greatest prophet of modern times. How did he know? Remember now, this statement was made well over a half a century before Vatican II even began – and long before John XXIII stood up at the podium and told a packed house that the inspiration to hold a council came to him in the very first instance – in a “sudden flash of inspiration”. Right. But your hierarchy wouldn’t lie to you, would they? Sure they would. They have no choice. Fr. Hans Kung said it himself back in the 1960’s:

    “We control the seminaries, the academic departments of theology, the catechetical and liturgical institutions, the publishing houses, the magazines that matter, and the chanceries. Most of the bishops are now on our side, and those that aren’t have been neutralized. Anybody who wants a future in the hierarchy, or the Catholic academy, has no choice but to cooperate.” (Fr. Hans Kung, “Catholic” priest and honored recipient of the Freemason’s Lifetime Achievement Award)

    Anybody who wants a future in the hierarchy has NO CHOICE but to cooperate. Well, that makes sense. The hierarchy is full of Freemasons and cowards. Now we know how this “Pastoral” lie could have survived for so many decades. And now, if we look closely, we might also see the Divine irony: The simple fact that this bold-faced lie EVEN EXISTS, bears indisputable witness to the truth. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

    In the end, Vatican II was absolutely, completely, and totally worthless. It was infected with heresy from beginning to end. None of its changes were made under any authority whatsoever. And Paul VI was no more pope of the Catholic Church than the man on the moon. And if you still cannot accept the truth, despite the overwhelming evidence, then, as I said in the beginning, you are ripe for the “Falling Away”. And in that case, Good Luck…

    "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind." (from the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium #16, Solemnly Promulgated by "His Holiness" "Pope" Paul VI on November 21, 1964)



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #1 on: August 05, 2017, 02:51:55 PM »
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  • GAUDET MATER ECCLESIA

    POPE JOHN'S OPENING SPEECH TO THE COUNCIL
    October 11, 1962


    "....Nor is the primary purpose of our work to discuss some of the chief articles of the Church's doctrine
    or to repeat at length what the Fathers and ancient and more recent theologians have handed on, things which we have every right to think are not unknown to you but reside in your minds. To have only such discussions there would have been no need to call an Ecuмenical Council.

    What instead is necessary today is that the whole of Christian doctrine, with no part of it lost, be received in our times by all with a new fervor, in serenity and peace, in that traditional and precise conceptually and expression which is especially displayed in the acts of the Councils of Trent and Vatican I.

    As all sincere promoters of Christian, Catholic, and apostolic faith strongly desire, what is needed is that this doctrine be more fully and more profoundly known and that minds be more fully imbued and formed by it. What is needed is that this certain and unchangeable doctrine, to which loyal submission is due, be investigated and presented in the way demanded by our times.

    For the deposit of faith, the truths contained in our venerable doctrine, are one thing; the fashion in which they are expressed, but with the same meaning and the same judgement, is another thing.

    This way of speaking will require a great deal of work and, it may be, much patience: types of presentation must beintroduced which are more in accord with a teaching authority which is primarily pastoral in character."


    From the Italian:
    "The salient point of this  Council is not, therefore, a discussion of one or another article of the Church's fundamental doctrine, a diffuse repetition of of the teaching of the Fathers and of the ancient and modern theologians, which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.

    For this a Council was not necessary.

    ......The substance of the ancient doctrine is one thing, and the formulation in which it is clothed is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great account, with patience if necessary, measuring everything by the forms and proportions of a teaching authority primarily pastoral in character."


    The OP of this thread explains it simply and thoroughly.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #2 on: August 05, 2017, 03:35:42 PM »
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  • Classic.
    When all else fails, just change the subject...
    Good Luck, Stubborn

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #3 on: August 05, 2017, 03:46:07 PM »
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  • Change the subject?

    Is not the title of this thread the subject?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #4 on: August 05, 2017, 03:51:30 PM »
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  • It's a curious theory, but doesn't hold water.
    .
    The opening speech of Vat.II was a game changer. No more was the Church going to apply her condemnation of error! No more anathemas!! (You see, a council would be "pastoral" if it removed its intention to condemn error and focused instead on pastoral concerns, whatever that means -- there had never been a "pastoral council" in the past so all the references to history and tradition was simply HOT AIR and signifying NOTHING.) No, instead the Church was to make use of the "medicine of mercy." The problem with that plan is that mercy is not medicine! Condemnation of error is medicine! Big Mistake Number Two.
    .
    So the "good Pope John's" plan was a loser from the get-go.
    .
    Not only that, when he read the Third Secret of Fatima he scoffed, "This is not for Our Pontificate."
    .
    That was Big Mistake Number One.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #5 on: August 05, 2017, 04:11:11 PM »
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  • GAUDET MATER ECCLESIA

    POPE JOHN'S OPENING SPEECH TO THE COUNCIL
    October 11, 1962
    .
    Curiously, when this occurred, October 11th was the Feast of the Divine Maternity of Mary. Not long after that, the Feast Day was abolished and a so-called tradeoff was erected on January 1st, which by the way displaced another longstanding Holy Day, the Feast of the Circuмcision, replacing it with the Solemnity of Mary, the Mother of God.
    .
    Reminds me of hiding a bean under one of three walnut shell halves......... (IOW a shell game)
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 04:46:44 PM »
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  • No Stubborn, your opening thread was exactly opposite of this opening thread. The point of this opening thread was that, according to the solemn, dogmatic teaching on papal infallibility from the Vatican Council of 1870, Paul VI could not possibly have been a valid pope. Ergo, everything he enacted, revised, or "solemnly ratified" was completely worthless - including the new Sacramental Rite of Ordination and Episcopal Consecration.

    In addition, the very fact that this "Pastoral" lie even exists, and is perpetuated by the Masonic controlled (and invalid) hierarchy, is proof that Paul VI was an antipope. The whole "Pastoral Council" myth was a cover-up. A smokescreen to hide the truth. The Masons are trying to hide the fact that Paul VI "solemnly ratified" anything at all. "It was just a Pastoral Council. Nothing authoritative happened. Go back to sleep. Allah is God."

    One more time: Paul VI "solemnly ratified" docuмents that were clearly heretical. This is something a true pope CANNOT POSSIBLY DO. Ergo, he was an antipope. And so, to posit, as you did (via Fr. Wathen) that the hierarchy still exists, is to deny the Catholic Dogma of Papal Infallibility. Therefore, in the end, your opening thread was entirely opposite of this one.

    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 05:05:33 PM »
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  • Neil Obstat says:

    It's a curious theory, but doesn't hold water.
    .
    The opening speech of Vat.II was a game changer. No more was the Church going to apply her condemnation of error! No more anathemas!! (You see, a council would be "pastoral" if it removed its intention to condemn error and focused instead on pastoral concerns, whatever that means -- there had never been a "pastoral council" in the past so all the references to history and tradition was simply HOT AIR and signifying NOTHING.) No, instead the Church was to make use of the "medicine of mercy." The problem with that plan is that mercy is not medicine! Condemnation of error is medicine! Big Mistake Number Two.
    .
    So the "good Pope John's" plan was a loser from the get-go.
    .
    Not only that, when he read the Third Secret of Fatima he scoffed, "This is not for Our Pontificate."
    .
    That was Big Mistake Number One.


    Listen to him go...
    Another change of the subject. A clever misdirection - and a subtle denial of solemnly defined Catholic Dogma.
    All the Masons' favorite tricks. And all done with such professional nonchalance.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 05:23:18 PM »
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  • Just because it was a pastoral council doesn't mean it wasn't ecuмenical.  It's not one or the other.  V2 was ecuмenical because it was open/attended by all the Cardinals of the Church.  All of the ecuмenical councils in the history of the Church have DEFINED and explained doctrine (that's why you call a council; it's sorta its purpose).  However, V2 did NOT define any doctrine, it only discussed HOW doctrine should be applied 'to modern man' (which is a novelty).  Therefore it wasn't a doctrinal council but a pastoral one.

    I don't know who first used the term 'pastoral', but Paul VI did use this term to describe it.

    Finally, to answer your first post - yes, of course John XXIII didn't call V2 a pastoral council...because it started out to be a normal council, with normal doctrinal definitions.  Many cardinals wanted to define Our Lady as the Mediatrix of All Graces.  But their plans were hijacked by liberals, who lied, coerced and tricked many into voting on liberal schemas which became the council.  In the end, V2 defined no new doctrines it only discussed how to apply them.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #9 on: August 06, 2017, 05:27:27 PM »
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  • My grandmother said, "There goes the Church!" when Vat.II hit the TV.  I was probably age 10.  I remember the press saying," We can not report of the council til translation is done."  I thought to myself, "that's crazy!" If it is in Latin or any language, it could be translated w/o a problem.

    My Great-great Uncle was a priest of the Precious Blood up to 1944.  He did keep the family up with news, when he was in town and had a family reunion/dinner.  I believe my Grandmother looked up to her nephew.  But my mother said, nothing.  Then only thing that made my parents talk at the dinner table was the cuban crisis and where would we go for safety from fall out.  I remember the drills in the catholic school, but there was not much talk about the council.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 04:58:33 AM »
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  • No Stubborn, your opening thread was exactly opposite of this opening thread. The point of this opening thread was that, according to the solemn, dogmatic teaching on papal infallibility from the Vatican Council of 1870, Paul VI could not possibly have been a valid pope. Ergo, everything he enacted, revised, or "solemnly ratified" was completely worthless - including the new Sacramental Rite of Ordination and Episcopal Consecration.
    The whole point of posting the exact opposite of your post is to show 1) there is another side to the subject and 2) the side I posted is correct, which is to say the opposite of what I posted, i.e. your post, is exactly wrong.
     

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 01:37:03 PM »
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  • Stubborn,
    You said my post was wrong, but you give no examples whatsoever, nor do you make any arguments to support your position. Tell us, what exactly is "wrong"? John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council". This is a fact that anyone can verify by simply reading the text. Paul VI never called it a "Pastoral Council" either. Both men referred to it as an Ecuмenical Council. This is a fact. Moreover, Paul VI "solemnly ratified" all 16 docuмents using the exact same authoritative language that real popes have traditionally ratified true Ecuмenical Councils with in the past. This is a fact. Furthermore, those very docuмents were infected with heresy. This is a fact. The example I gave at the end of my opening post (from the "Dogmatic" Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium [#16]) says that Allah and the Most Holy Trinity are one and the same. This is not only heresy, but outright Apostasy because the Muslims absolutely reject the Holy Trinity. And Paul VI "solemnly ratified" this puke. This is a fact - and  something a true pope cannot possibly do. Ergo, according to the dogma of Papal Infallibility, Paul VI cannot be a true pope. This is a fact. This also means that any of his revisions, declarations, or "solemn ratifications" are completely worthless.  Unfortunately, that includes the Sacrament of Holy Orders, and the Rite of Episcopal Consecration. This is a fact.

    Now, tell me, what did I say that is "wrong"?


    Offline sedevacantist

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 02:11:41 PM »
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  • Just because it was a pastoral council doesn't mean it wasn't ecuмenical.  It's not one or the other.  V2 was ecuмenical because it was open/attended by all the Cardinals of the Church.  All of the ecuмenical councils in the history of the Church have DEFINED and explained doctrine (that's why you call a council; it's sorta its purpose).  However, V2 did NOT define any doctrine, it only discussed HOW doctrine should be applied 'to modern man' (which is a novelty).  Therefore it wasn't a doctrinal council but a pastoral one.

    I don't know who first used the term 'pastoral', but Paul VI did use this term to describe it.

    Finally, to answer your first post - yes, of course John XXIII didn't call V2 a pastoral council...because it started out to be a normal council, with normal doctrinal definitions.  Many cardinals wanted to define Our Lady as the Mediatrix of All Graces.  But their plans were hijacked by liberals, who lied, coerced and tricked many into voting on liberal schemas which became the council.  In the end, V2 defined no new doctrines it only discussed how to apply them.

    Right off the bat, you claim Vatican II was "a Pastoral Council". Where did you get this from? No one ever called it a "Pastoral Council". In fact, there's no such thing as a "Pastoral Council". The term doesn't even exist. The phrase was concocted by the Puppetmasters in an effort to cover their tails. Did you even read the OP?

    Secondly, you claim that Paul VI described Vatican II as a "Pastoral Council". This is absolutely not true. He referred to it 9 times as an Ecuмenical Council. Again, did you even read the OP?

    Third, you claim that Vatican II began as a normal council, but was then "high-jacked". And yet, Paul VI clearly referred to the same council as an Ecuмenical Council in his closing speech - and this, after he had "SOLEMNLY RATIFIED" the heresies within its docuмents. You don't seem to understand the point. Let me spell it out for you: A TRUE POPE CANNOT SOLEMNLY RATIFY HERESY. How is it you don't understand this?

    And finally, you contradict yourself numerous times. You said that Vatican II "did not define any doctrine". Then you said that it "started out with normal doctrinal definitions". So which is it? Furthermore, your statement that the council never defined any "new" doctrines would necessarily imply that the Church has always taught that Allah and the Holy Trinity are one and the same. One more time, this heretical vomit was "solemnly ratified" by Paul VI.  And that's merely one example. The docuмent Nostrae Aetate claims that the Hindus also worship God - all 330,000 of Him. And yes, this was also "solemnly ratified" by Paul VI.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 03:28:10 PM »
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  • Quote
    Right off the bat, you claim Vatican II was "a Pastoral Council". Where did you get this from? No one ever called it a "Pastoral Council". In fact, there's no such thing as a "Pastoral Council". The term doesn't even exist. The phrase was concocted by the Puppetmasters in an effort to cover their tails. Did you even read the OP?
    It's called a 'pastoral' council because Paul VI said it was not doctrinal but had a "pastoral character".

    General audience given by Paul VI on January 12, 1966:
    Quote
    There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions engaging the infallibility of the ecclesiastical Magisterium. The answer is known by whoever remembers the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964: given the Council’s pastoral character, it avoided pronouncing, in an extraordinary manner, dogmas endowed with the note of infallibility.
    If you prefer, instead of calling it a 'pastoral council' you can call it a 'non doctrinal' council.

    Quote
    Secondly, you claim that Paul VI described Vatican II as a "Pastoral Council". This is absolutely not true. He referred to it 9 times as an Ecuмenical Council. Again, did you even read the OP?
    See above quote.

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    Third, you claim that Vatican II began as a normal council, but was then "high-jacked". And yet, Paul VI clearly referred to the same council as an Ecuмenical Council in his closing speech - and this, after he had "SOLEMNLY RATIFIED" the heresies within its docuмents. You don't seem to understand the point. Let me spell it out for you: A TRUE POPE CANNOT SOLEMNLY RATIFY HERESY. How is it you don't understand this?
    Again, it was ecuмenical because it was open to all Cardinals.  It could also be called a 'general' council because it is open to all Cardinals.  This term has nothing to do with the subject matter of the council itself.  It has to do with who is invited and if it's a local, diocesan, country-wide, or church-wide (i.e. general) assembly.

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    And finally, you contradict yourself numerous times. You said that Vatican II "did not define any doctrine".  Then you said that it "started out with normal doctrinal definitions".  So which is it?  
    V2 did not define anything, in the formal, clear and authoritative sense that is REQUIRED by vatican I's definition of infallibility.  When I said it "started out" with doctrinal definitions, I explained that those conservatives in attendance started out the schemas with well-intentioned and good church teaching.  But, as the drafts were edited and voted upon and went through the different stages of review, they were changed from the typical clear, authoritative language which is normal for doctrine and they morphed into the ambiguous, long-winded, contradictory garbage we know today.

    Council docuмents are not created out of thin air, with all the Cardinals meditating silently, while the Holy Ghost imparts wisdom into their minds all at the same time.  They are written like anything else in life - through hard work, outlines, drafts, edits, re-writes, voting, more edits, more re-writes, then finalized docuмent.  It's why councils take YEARS to finish.

    If you want to read a journalist's account of the mayhem and hijacking that occurred, read the book:  "The Rhine Flows Into the Tiber". 

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    Furthermore, your statement that the council never defined any "new" doctrines would necessarily imply that the Church has always taught that Allah and the Holy Trinity are one and the same. One more time, this heretical vomit was "solemnly ratified" by Paul VI.  And that's merely one example. The docuмent Nostrae Aetate claims that the Hindus also worship God - all 330,000 of Him. And yes, this was also "solemnly ratified" by Paul VI.
    All councils and all legal docuмents must be 'solemnly ratified' in order to become finalized, legally.  The council was called, it produced docuмents, it was ended.  Paul VI ratified it's docuмents as being legal and existing.  It is a legal term, not a doctrinal term.  It has nothing to do with doctrine, dogma or infallibility.  See Vatican I on infallibility for more info.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council"
    « Reply #14 on: August 07, 2017, 04:25:40 PM »
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  • Stubborn,
    You said my post was wrong, but you give no examples whatsoever, nor do you make any arguments to support your position. Tell us, what exactly is "wrong"? John XXIII never called Vatican II a "Pastoral Council". This is a fact that anyone can verify by simply reading the text. Paul VI never called it a "Pastoral Council" either. Both men referred to it as an Ecuмenical Council. This is a fact. Moreover, Paul VI "solemnly ratified" all 16 docuмents using the exact same authoritative language that real popes have traditionally ratified true Ecuмenical Councils with in the past. This is a fact. Furthermore, those very docuмents were infected with heresy. This is a fact. The example I gave at the end of my opening post (from the "Dogmatic" Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium [#16]) says that Allah and the Most Holy Trinity are one and the same. This is not only heresy, but outright Apostasy because the Muslims absolutely reject the Holy Trinity. And Paul VI "solemnly ratified" this puke. This is a fact - and  something a true pope cannot possibly do. Ergo, according to the dogma of Papal Infallibility, Paul VI cannot be a true pope. This is a fact. This also means that any of his revisions, declarations, or "solemn ratifications" are completely worthless.  Unfortunately, that includes the Sacrament of Holy Orders, and the Rite of Episcopal Consecration. This is a fact.

    Now, tell me, what did I say that is "wrong"?
    You obviously did not read my posts, he specifically stated in Mater Ecclesia that the Council was not assembled to discuss doctrine. It is the first sentence.

    He said what was needed was a new way of presenting the faith to the world and that it was for this reason that the Council was called - it is right there in Mater Ecclesia and the link I provided at the bottom explains it in plain English.

    You share the same dilemma, i.e. "pope problem" as most other sedevacantists, namely, you have yourself convinced that what happened did not happen as it actually did happen.

    To read what actually did happen, read the link I supplied at the bottom of my first post. While he does not quote the popes word for word, what he says is entirely accurate.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse