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Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Belloc on December 09, 2009, 07:42:05 AM

Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Belloc on December 09, 2009, 07:42:05 AM
This thread is for Raoul and others to discuss NFP/Pius XII and anythign realted, much like GV "Ode" thread!!

have at it folks!
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: CM on December 09, 2009, 08:12:33 AM
How kind of you.  Care to "kick it off" with a position statement?

I'll even go first:  Birth control is inherently contrary to the Natural Law, the law written on the hearts of all men.  Therefore a person who believes that birth control is okay is sinning against his own conscience, is contradicting the order God has revealed to him through nature, a Divinely revealed dogma of morals.

A person who performs the marital act during a time when pregnancy is not possible may be either:

1) doing so without knowing that it is an infertile period - without any sin (barring other possible factors).

2) doing so with such knowledge, but not with the intent to avoid procreation, and would gladly accept offspring if they should be bestowed by God - the just rendering of the debt for the quelling of concupiscence - possibly a venial defect and definitely not consonant with mortification.

3) doing so for the purpose of avoiding performing the act during periods of fertility (even planning a "schedule around such"), with the willful and contraceptive intention of separating the act from its ordained purpose - mortally sinful lust.
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Belloc on December 09, 2009, 08:26:04 AM
Thanks for helping to kick it off and confine the discussion a bit more on topic, not all over the place...
Question-why did not give us free will
Question-why is it we can perform sɛҳuąƖ acts whenever, not just in certain mating seasons and times of the year, like animlas do?
Question-why then did God give woamn a time when she was infertile, why not make her fertile 24/7, 365 days a year??

Somethings to think about...

CM, again, thanks for helping to kick off hte NFP/Pius XII thread..no, no kindness, thought maybe we should copy GV successful approach he uses in the "Ode" thread is all, but hey, no prob, took me a minute at the most......
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Belloc on December 09, 2009, 08:28:58 AM
Quote from: Catholic M
How kind of you.  Care to "kick it off" with a position statement?

I'll even go first:  Birth control is inherently contrary to the Natural Law, the law written on the hearts of all men.  Therefore a person who believes that birth control is okay is sinning against his own conscience, is contradicting the order God has revealed to him through nature, a Divinely revealed dogma of morals.

A person who performs the marital act during a time when pregnancy is not possible may be either:

1) doing so without knowing that it is an infertile period - without any sin (barring other possible factors).

2) doing so with such knowledge, but not with the intent to avoid procreation, and would gladly accept offspring if they should be bestowed by God - the just rendering of the debt for the quelling of concupiscence - possibly a venial defect and definitely not consonant with mortification.

3) doing so for the purpose of avoiding performing the act during periods of fertility (even planning a "schedule around such"), with the willful and contraceptive intention of separating the act from its ordained purpose - mortally sinful lust.


Nothing sinful about sex in infertile period at all, otherwise, why the infertile period, what purpose does it then serve, other than for couples to perform secondary act of sex, that of union..

Do you beleive 2 70 yr olds are sinning everytime they have sex, when reproduction is highly unlikely for man and nearly impossible for woman???

NFP can be abused, just like food,moneyalcohol,etc....
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: CM on December 09, 2009, 08:52:26 AM
Quote from: Belloc
Question-why did not give us free will


This phrase makes no sense, and what I suspect you are asking doesn't even seem relevant.

Quote
Question-why is it we can perform sɛҳuąƖ acts whenever, not just in certain mating seasons and times of the year, like animlas do?


Animals can do it any time, and they do.  Also, certain times of the year are more prone to seeing human births.  Your parallel does nothing

Quote
Question-why then did God give woamn a time when she was infertile, why not make her fertile 24/7, 365 days a year??


Did it ever occur to you that everything in God's creation is cyclical?  It was not so that man could confine his intimate encounters to those periods exclusively.

Quote from: Belloc
Nothing sinful about sex in infertile period at all, otherwise, why the infertile period, what purpose does it then serve, other than for couples to perform secondary act of sex, that of union.


Couples can indeed become pregnant in the infertile period, since with God all things are possible.  This is one of the very thing that NFP supporters say makes it okay, but guess what - pregnancy can occur with condoms and drugs too.  It's not the possibility, it's not the mechanical logistics of the act, it's the intention behind the act that makes it either sinful or good.

Quote
Do you beleive 2 70 yr olds are sinning everytime they have sex, when reproduction is highly unlikely for man and nearly impossible for woman???


Do they lovingly accept the child that would result, and even hope for a miracle, even if they don't expect one?  Yes or no?  If yes they are not sinning.  But if they contemn the possibility of procreation, then they are in sin.

Quote
NFP can be abused, just like food,moneyalcohol,etc....


I disagree with what you have stated.  I would amend it to "Use of the infertile period can be abused, such as those who use it for it's own sake, with the intention of avoiding conception in the marital act."
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Belloc on December 09, 2009, 08:58:22 AM
agree with your statements about the "open to life" arguement, that should always be the considereation and yes, God can do all....that is the main thing when considering NFP, if your planning fails, but was done with good and rightous intentions, then open to life is a yes....emphasis on good intentions and open to life...

Otherwise, this topic bores the heck out of me,,,,yes it is important, but not my hot button, as it is for Raoul and others...

but, if it were me and due to grave reasons I was practicing NFP-again, grave reasonss not "I want a beach house and kid would mess that up" thinking and the wife got preegnant, then though I may not have wanted the pregnancy to happen, it would be a gift of God to accept and praise him for....our words shouldbe in this and every other time "thine will Lord, not mine"...

so, NFP for grave reasons only..if it fails, aceptance and fiat of His will...as did Mary say "thy will, not mine".....
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Chi Roh on December 09, 2009, 09:20:23 AM
As a happily married man with 10 children (and an 11th due in March next year), I would say as a general point I am against, in a personal capacity, NFP. But I'm kinda with Belloc in so far as I do see NFP as morally accetable for *grave reasons* only.

That said, we need to define exactly what purpose and *MEANING* the 'marital act' is for. I'd suggest reading Hildebrand's book on Marriage (impri. 1926 I believe), and his newer effort from the 60's on Man, Woman & the Meaning of Love.

And like Belloc, I don't see this as a real hot subject for myself either. My beloved wife & I will accept any & all children the Almighty cares to bestow on us. It really is, for us at least, as simple as that...

God bless,

CRAIG

Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: CM on December 09, 2009, 09:21:42 AM
Ah so were are making a segue into Pius XII, then?  What kind of Church authority makes birth control a "dogma" of the Church, and says it's lawful under "grave reason" and then does not define them, other than to say:

Quote from: Antipope Pius XII
Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason, would be a sin against the very nature of married life.

Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called "indications," may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life.


As Raoul76 has pointed out, this is pure, calculated, communist eugenics.  Doublespeak at its most obvious, really.

Has anyone in the "Church" ever defined "grave reason" or "serious motives" Belloc.

And how does "I want a beach house and kid would mess that up" not fit into "economic and social so-called 'indications'"?
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Belloc on December 09, 2009, 10:00:59 AM
Quote from: Chi Roh
As a happily married man with 10 children (and an 11th due in March next year), I would say as a general point I am against, in a personal capacity, NFP. But I'm kinda with Belloc in so far as I do see NFP as morally accetable for *grave reasons* only.

That said, we need to define exactly what purpose and *MEANING* the 'marital act' is for. I'd suggest reading Hildebrand's book on Marriage (impri. 1926 I believe), and his newer effort from the 60's on Man, Woman & the Meaning of Love.

And like Belloc, I don't see this as a real hot subject for myself either. My beloved wife & I will accept any & all children the Almighty cares to bestow on us. It really is, for us at least, as simple as that...

God bless,

CRAIG



Congrads to you and wife!!

I remember the words of one of the people cured at Lourdes, Sister Jean Fratel, "everything is from the Lord without a doubt, I accept everything with great joy"..she also meant her suffering in old age and her suffering from yrs of msyterious illness, diagnosed as Peritonitis....
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Chi Roh on December 10, 2009, 08:57:18 AM
Quote from: Belloc

Congrads to you and wife!!

I remember the words of one of the people cured at Lourdes, Sister Jean Fratel, "everything is from the Lord without a doubt, I accept everything with great joy"...


My deepest gratitude for that  :smile: - life is tough, sure, but when all is said and done, we wouldn't have it any other way. Indeed, they are words of wisdom there: "everything is from the Lord without a doubt, I accept everything with great joy".

Best wishes,

CRAIG
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: spouse of Jesus on December 10, 2009, 11:50:40 PM
  Chi Roh, your post about your family and your beautiful words about your wife is very charming. What do you say to those women who use birth control to save their marriage? they say:

1- multiple child births make them less and less atractive, they will look old very soon. men don't like it.

2-having many children will make them much busy and distracted, no energy will be left in them when their husband returns home at the evening.

3-Husbands will have to work harder and spend more time outside in order to provide for such a large family, as a result they will have a very limited time for spending time with their wives.
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: CM on December 11, 2009, 12:35:25 AM
Quote from: spouse of Jesus
1- multiple child births make them less and less atractive, they will look old very soon. men don't like it.


- Vanity

Quote
2-having many children will make them much busy and distracted, no energy will be left in them when their husband returns home at the evening.


Mixed up priorities.  It is Matrimony (the office of motherhood) above all, as ordained by God.

Quote
3-Husbands will have to work harder and spend more time outside in order to provide for such a large family, as a result they will have a very limited time for spending time with their wives.


Sloth and lack of Faith in Divine providence, who gives no one more than they can handle.  If a person chooses to be married, then they choose to have a celibate marriage or they choose to be prepared to have children, as God ordains.
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Raoul76 on December 11, 2009, 01:25:18 AM
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: spouse of Jesus on December 11, 2009, 02:20:06 AM
  CM, according to what you said, I must change my ideas about what marriage is. I though that marriage having/being with a man who loves you and cares for you, also spending time together.
  But I must change my position to this : marriage primarily means being with/spending time many children (and ofcourse at the late evening a man may come asking for his dinner).
  (Better for me to consider becoming a babysitter one day. having a husband only for 5 or 6 hours a day, doesn't worth it!)
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: CM on December 11, 2009, 02:54:21 AM
"Romance" is an invention of the devil to detract from the true purpose of marriage, which the populating of the world with saints.
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: CM on December 11, 2009, 02:55:57 AM
That doesn't mean that amity cannot exist in a marriage, it can and most certainly should.  Your spouse should be your best friend on the earth, the one you trust enough that you would be willing to place the salvation of you children in his/her care.
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: CM on December 11, 2009, 02:57:00 AM
But "romance", as the world proposes it and hedonism are all too similar, so much so that I, for one, cannot tell the difference.
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: CM on December 11, 2009, 03:19:42 AM
What is the Father and the Holy Ghost without the Son?  What are a husband and wife without children?  Incomplete.

Quote from: Tobias 6:16-22
Then the angel Raphael said to him: Hear me, and I will shew thee who they are, over whom the devil can prevail. For they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil hath power. But thou when thou shalt take her, go into the chamber, and for three days keep thyself continent from her, and give thyself to nothing else but to prayers with her. And on that night lay the liver of the fish on the fire, and the devil shall be driven away. But the second night thou shalt be admitted into the society of the holy Patriarchs.

And the third night thou shalt obtain a blessing that sound children may be born of you. And when the third night is past, thou shalt take the virgin with the fear of the Lord, moved rather for love of children than for lust, that in the seed of Abraham thou mayst obtain a blessing in children.


When the horse and mule mate, they almost never bear offspring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#Fertility), but there have been docuмented cases.  Now isn't that interesting?  And yet we have the NFP crowd who admit that they are much less likely to conceive while performing NFP, but that because it's "open to life" they are not sinning, nor does the devil have power over them.  Right.

GIVE


ME


A


BREAK!




By the way Raoul76, you may like to read Leviticus 15:24-33.
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Jehanne on December 11, 2009, 05:19:22 AM
David,

Just curious, how many children do you have?

Don
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: CM on December 11, 2009, 05:57:50 AM
If I had children I would be in mortal sin, for I have no wife.  However, if you were to ask the same question to my Catholic friend Francis, he would answer "5".

How many children would I like to have, were I married?  Like doesn't enter into it, as I have explained above.  But I would not get married until I was stable enough in temporal matters to support a family.  At the moment I can support myself quite adequately, but I would not do myself, my future wife and the Sacrament of Matrimony a disservice by presuming to be in any kind of temporal fitness to marry.
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Belloc on December 11, 2009, 07:16:23 AM
CM, is Francis a real Catholic?

You mean to tell me you are not, indeed, the last Catholic on the planet?

ya made my day!
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: CM on December 11, 2009, 07:22:28 AM
Belloc, I have never claimed to think I was.  YOU have claimed that I think I am.

I know many individuals who are Catholic.  But having all kinds of kids makes it hard for some of them to post on Cathinfo, and the older ones either don't have the interest, or what have you, so here I am, the single guy with a job that leaves me a fair amount of time (usually) for study, prayer and diverse other Catholic works.
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Belloc on December 11, 2009, 07:27:18 AM
I am just glad to know you have good Catholic freinds and do not think you are alone.....no slight meant, happy to hear this!!
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Telesphorus on December 11, 2009, 08:52:08 AM
Quote
Doing ANYTHING to impede birth has always been a mortal sin.  


Mutual periodic abstinence is not a sin.

1) It would be a sin to demand the marriage debt if  pregnancy would lead to something like the Chinese government forcing an abortion on your wife.

2) It would also be a sin to refuse the marriage debt.

Abstaining from intercourse during the fertile period is not a sin.  There is only the question of the legitimacy of the intentions.

Your position on this is heresy.

Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Belloc on December 11, 2009, 09:02:11 AM
I think it always boils down to intentions.

3 Conditions for Mortal Sin
Grave matter
Full knowledge
Deliberate consent
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Jehanne on December 11, 2009, 09:28:20 AM
Quote from: CM
If I had children I would be in mortal sin, for I have no wife.  However, if you were to ask the same question to my Catholic friend Francis, he would answer "5".

How many children would I like to have, were I married?  Like doesn't enter into it, as I have explained above.  But I would not get married until I was stable enough in temporal matters to support a family.  At the moment I can support myself quite adequately, but I would not do myself, my future wife and the Sacrament of Matrimony a disservice by presuming to be in any kind of temporal fitness to marry.


Yeah, that's the point, isn't it?  Marriage is more than just having children; it is also raising them.  I am glad that you at least acknowledged the financial aspect of it.
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Belloc on December 11, 2009, 09:40:41 AM
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: CM
If I had children I would be in mortal sin, for I have no wife.  However, if you were to ask the same question to my Catholic friend Francis, he would answer "5".

How many children would I like to have, were I married?  Like doesn't enter into it, as I have explained above.  But I would not get married until I was stable enough in temporal matters to support a family.  At the moment I can support myself quite adequately, but I would not do myself, my future wife and the Sacrament of Matrimony a disservice by presuming to be in any kind of temporal fitness to marry.


Yeah, that's the point, isn't it?  Marriage is more than just having children; it is also raising them.  I am glad that you at least acknowledged the financial aspect of it.


We could quote Pius XI in CC, but as CM has erased him from Papacy, would be useless, hence a large part of Catholic teaching is for CM out the window...for anyone else interested though:

. ...any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin.

(Casti Connubii also acknowledges the unitive aspect of intercourse as licit):

Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.

So, marital sex is 1. procreation, but 2. unitative in that order...

otherwise, it woudl be sinful for 2 70 yr olds to marry/sex....yes thy wshould be open to Abraham-like miracles, though unlikely....
Title: Issues with NFP/Pius XII
Post by: Chi Roh on December 12, 2009, 06:41:39 AM