Author Topic: Issues with NFP/Pius XII (Read 3559 times)

Belloc · « **on:** December 09, 2009, 07:42:05 AM »

This thread is for Raoul and others to discuss NFP/Pius XII and anythign realted, much like GV "Ode" thread!!

have at it folks!

CM · « **Reply #1 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:12:33 AM »

How kind of you. Care to "kick it off" with a position statement?

I'll even go first: Birth control is inherently contrary to the Natural Law, the law written on the hearts of all men. Therefore a person who believes that birth control is okay is sinning against his own conscience, is contradicting the order God has revealed to him through nature, a Divinely revealed dogma of morals.

A person who performs the marital act during a time when pregnancy is not possible may be either:

1) doing so without knowing that it is an infertile period - without any sin (barring other possible factors).

2) doing so with such knowledge, but not with the intent to avoid procreation, and would gladly accept offspring if they should be bestowed by God - the just rendering of the debt for the quelling of concupiscence - possibly a venial defect and definitely not consonant with mortification.

3) doing so for the purpose of avoiding performing the act during periods of fertility (even planning a "schedule around such"), with the willful and contraceptive intention of separating the act from its ordained purpose - mortally sinful lust.

Belloc · « **Reply #2 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:26:04 AM »

Thanks for helping to kick it off and confine the discussion a bit more on topic, not all over the place...
Question-why did not give us free will
Question-why is it we can perform sɛҳuąƖ acts whenever, not just in certain mating seasons and times of the year, like animlas do?
Question-why then did God give woamn a time when she was infertile, why not make her fertile 24/7, 365 days a year??

Somethings to think about...

CM, again, thanks for helping to kick off hte NFP/Pius XII thread..no, no kindness, thought maybe we should copy GV successful approach he uses in the "Ode" thread is all, but hey, no prob, took me a minute at the most......

Belloc · « **Reply #3 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:28:58 AM »

Quote from: Catholic M

How kind of you. Care to "kick it off" with a position statement?

I'll even go first: Birth control is inherently contrary to the Natural Law, the law written on the hearts of all men. Therefore a person who believes that birth control is okay is sinning against his own conscience, is contradicting the order God has revealed to him through nature, a Divinely revealed dogma of morals.

A person who performs the marital act during a time when pregnancy is not possible may be either:

1) doing so without knowing that it is an infertile period - without any sin (barring other possible factors).

2) doing so with such knowledge, but not with the intent to avoid procreation, and would gladly accept offspring if they should be bestowed by God - the just rendering of the debt for the quelling of concupiscence - possibly a venial defect and definitely not consonant with mortification.

3) doing so for the purpose of avoiding performing the act during periods of fertility (even planning a "schedule around such"), with the willful and contraceptive intention of separating the act from its ordained purpose - mortally sinful lust.

Nothing sinful about sex in infertile period at all, otherwise, why the infertile period, what purpose does it then serve, other than for couples to perform secondary act of sex, that of union..

Do you beleive 2 70 yr olds are sinning everytime they have sex, when reproduction is highly unlikely for man and nearly impossible for woman???

NFP can be abused, just like food,moneyalcohol,etc....

CM · « **Reply #4 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:52:26 AM »

Quote from: Belloc

Question-why did not give us free will

This phrase makes no sense, and what I suspect you are asking doesn't even seem relevant.

Quote

Question-why is it we can perform sɛҳuąƖ acts whenever, not just in certain mating seasons and times of the year, like animlas do?

Animals can do it any time, and they do. Also, certain times of the year are more prone to seeing human births. Your parallel does nothing

Quote

Question-why then did God give woamn a time when she was infertile, why not make her fertile 24/7, 365 days a year??

Did it ever occur to you that everything in God's creation is cyclical? It was not so that man could confine his intimate encounters to those periods exclusively.

Quote from: Belloc

Nothing sinful about sex in infertile period at all, otherwise, why the infertile period, what purpose does it then serve, other than for couples to perform secondary act of sex, that of union.

Couples can indeed become pregnant in the infertile period, since with God all things are possible. This is one of the very thing that NFP supporters say makes it okay, but guess what - pregnancy can occur with condoms and drugs too. It's not the possibility, it's not the mechanical logistics of the act, it's the intention behind the act that makes it either sinful or good.

Quote

Do you beleive 2 70 yr olds are sinning everytime they have sex, when reproduction is highly unlikely for man and nearly impossible for woman???

Do they lovingly accept the child that would result, and even hope for a miracle, even if they don't expect one? Yes or no? If yes they are not sinning. But if they contemn the possibility of procreation, then they are in sin.

Quote

NFP can be abused, just like food,moneyalcohol,etc....

I disagree with what you have stated. I would amend it to "Use of the infertile period can be abused, such as those who use it for it's own sake, with the intention of avoiding conception in the marital act."

Belloc · « **Reply #5 on:** December 09, 2009, 08:58:22 AM »

agree with your statements about the "open to life" arguement, that should always be the considereation and yes, God can do all....that is the main thing when considering NFP, if your planning fails, but was done with good and rightous intentions, then open to life is a yes....emphasis on good intentions and open to life...

Otherwise, this topic bores the heck out of me,,,,yes it is important, but not my hot button, as it is for Raoul and others...

but, if it were me and due to grave reasons I was practicing NFP-again, grave reasonss not "I want a beach house and kid would mess that up" thinking and the wife got preegnant, then though I may not have wanted the pregnancy to happen, it would be a gift of God to accept and praise him for....our words shouldbe in this and every other time "thine will Lord, not mine"...

so, NFP for grave reasons only..if it fails, aceptance and fiat of His will...as did Mary say "thy will, not mine".....

Chi Roh · « **Reply #6 on:** December 09, 2009, 09:20:23 AM »

As a happily married man with 10 children (and an 11th due in March next year), I would say as a general point I am against, in a personal capacity, NFP. But I'm kinda with Belloc in so far as I do see NFP as morally accetable for *grave reasons* only.

That said, we need to define exactly what purpose and *MEANING* the 'marital act' is for. I'd suggest reading Hildebrand's book on Marriage (impri. 1926 I believe), and his newer effort from the 60's on Man, Woman & the Meaning of Love.

And like Belloc, I don't see this as a real hot subject for myself either. My beloved wife & I will accept any & all children the Almighty cares to bestow on us. It really is, for us at least, as simple as that...

God bless,

CRAIG

CM · « **Reply #7 on:** December 09, 2009, 09:21:42 AM »

Ah so were are making a segue into Pius XII, then? What kind of Church authority makes birth control a "dogma" of the Church, and says it's lawful under "grave reason" and then does not define them, other than to say:

Quote from: Antipope Pius XII

Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason, would be a sin against the very nature of married life.

Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called "indications," may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life.

As Raoul76 has pointed out, this is pure, calculated, communist eugenics. Doublespeak at its most obvious, really.

Has anyone in the "Church" ever defined "grave reason" or "serious motives" Belloc.

And how does "I want a beach house and kid would mess that up" not fit into "economic and social so-called 'indications'"?

Belloc · « **Reply #8 on:** December 09, 2009, 10:00:59 AM »

Quote from: Chi Roh

As a happily married man with 10 children (and an 11th due in March next year), I would say as a general point I am against, in a personal capacity, NFP. But I'm kinda with Belloc in so far as I do see NFP as morally accetable for *grave reasons* only.

That said, we need to define exactly what purpose and *MEANING* the 'marital act' is for. I'd suggest reading Hildebrand's book on Marriage (impri. 1926 I believe), and his newer effort from the 60's on Man, Woman & the Meaning of Love.

And like Belloc, I don't see this as a real hot subject for myself either. My beloved wife & I will accept any & all children the Almighty cares to bestow on us. It really is, for us at least, as simple as that...

God bless,

CRAIG

Congrads to you and wife!!

I remember the words of one of the people cured at Lourdes, Sister Jean Fratel, "everything is from the Lord without a doubt, I accept everything with great joy"..she also meant her suffering in old age and her suffering from yrs of msyterious illness, diagnosed as Peritonitis....

Chi Roh · « **Reply #9 on:** December 10, 2009, 08:57:18 AM »

Quote from: Belloc

Congrads to you and wife!!

I remember the words of one of the people cured at Lourdes, Sister Jean Fratel, "everything is from the Lord without a doubt, I accept everything with great joy"...

My deepest gratitude for that :smile: - life is tough, sure, but when all is said and done, we wouldn't have it any other way. Indeed, they are words of wisdom there: "everything is from the Lord without a doubt, I accept everything with great joy".

Best wishes,

CRAIG

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #10 on:** December 10, 2009, 11:50:40 PM »

Chi Roh, your post about your family and your beautiful words about your wife is very charming. What do you say to those women who use birth control to save their marriage? they say:

1- multiple child births make them less and less atractive, they will look old very soon. men don't like it.

2-having many children will make them much busy and distracted, no energy will be left in them when their husband returns home at the evening.

3-Husbands will have to work harder and spend more time outside in order to provide for such a large family, as a result they will have a very limited time for spending time with their wives.

CM · « **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2009, 12:35:25 AM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

1- multiple child births make them less and less atractive, they will look old very soon. men don't like it.

- Vanity

Quote

2-having many children will make them much busy and distracted, no energy will be left in them when their husband returns home at the evening.

Mixed up priorities. It is Matrimony (the office of motherhood) above all, as ordained by God.

Quote

3-Husbands will have to work harder and spend more time outside in order to provide for such a large family, as a result they will have a very limited time for spending time with their wives.

Sloth and lack of Faith in Divine providence, who gives no one more than they can handle. If a person chooses to be married, then they choose to have a celibate marriage or they choose to be prepared to have children, as God ordains.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2009, 01:25:18 AM »

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2009, 02:20:06 AM »

CM, according to what you said, I must change my ideas about what marriage is. I though that marriage having/being with a man who loves you and cares for you, also spending time together.
But I must change my position to this : marriage primarily means being with/spending time many children (and ofcourse at the late evening a man may come asking for his dinner).
(Better for me to consider becoming a babysitter one day. having a husband only for 5 or 6 hours a day, doesn't worth it!)

CM · « **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2009, 02:54:21 AM »

"Romance" is an invention of the devil to detract from the true purpose of marriage, which the populating of the world with saints.