Author Topic: Israel claims to be surprised by Palestine uprising (Read 14751 times)

Darcy · « **Reply #80 on:** May 21, 2011, 12:07:16 AM »

Are we still talking about the same Jews?

I was under the impression that those that say they are "Jews" be they religious, secular, atheists and/or ethnically descended from the Khazars are NOT of the original tribes that were lost.
So these "Jєωιѕн" people are NOT truly Jews at all neither ethnically or religiously. But they just claim to be the original Jews who are favored by God.
The Jєωιѕн religion that is practiced today for the most part is тαℓмυdism/Phariseeism which Jesus condemned in the real Jєωιѕн people of His time who are of the lost tribes now. I think that makes it very confusing. Like they want it to be.
:confused1:
I see the current "Jew" claimants of today as a political organization who have acquired for themselves special privileges and powers.
In actuality there are probably an extremely small number of true "Jews" in the world today.

Clarification appreciated :thinking:

Cristian · « **Reply #81 on:** May 21, 2011, 08:24:41 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: Cristian
It says "out of all countries", therefore this has to mean after 70 a.D. where they were scattered into all nations.

Who constitutes Israel post-70 AD? The Church, no? She is the true Israel.

I distinguish, the Church is the continuation of the Ecclesia of the OT, I concede. They are the carnal descendants of the 12 tribes I deny. Spiritually speaking we can truly say the Church is the true Israel. Pius XI beautifully said “We Catholics are spiritually Semites”
Prophesies talking about the restoration of Israel deal with their future conversion and now with the Catholic Church.

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From the Douay commentary on the text just before the one cited:

[15] "Nor lose thy nation any more"... This whole promise principally relates to the church of Christ, and God's perpetual protection of her: for as to the carnal Jews, they have been removed out of their land these sixteen hundred years.

This is from a simple Bible. There are others which would give more info, but I no longer possess them.

As an aside, there are several authors who apply this to the future conversion of Israel…

So if the whole promise relates to the Church could you explain?

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a) 8 But as for you, O mountains of Israel, shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel: for they are at hand to come.

Where did the Church go/will go in order to come back? Which land is that?

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b) 10 And I will multiply men upon you, and all the house of Israel: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the ruinous places shall be repaired. 11 And I will make you abound with men and with beasts: and they shall be multiplied, and increased: and I will settle you as from the beginning, and will give you greater gifts, than you had from the beginning: and you shall know that I am the Lord.

So if Israel (the Church) will know that God is God that means it will be a time when the Church won´t recognize Him. How do you reconcile this with the infallibility?

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16 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it with their ways, and with their doings: their way was before me like the uncleanness of a menstruous woman. 18 And I poured out my indignation upon them for the blood which they had shed upon the land, and with their idols they defiled it. 19 And I scattered them among the nations, and they are dispersed through the countries: I have judged them according to their ways, and their devices. 20 And when they entered among the nations whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when it was said of them: This is the people of the Lord, and they have come forth out of his land. 21 And I have regarded my own holy name, which the house of Israel has profaned among the nations to which they went in.

So, will God chastise the Church scattering her among the nations and dispersing her through the countries…? I don´t understand… if the Church is universal is not rather something glorious to be scattered all around the world? Besides from where was she scattered?

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22 Therefore you shall say to the house of Israel: Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake that I will do this, O house of Israel, but for my holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations whither you went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the Gentiles, which you have profaned in the midst of them: that the Gentiles may know that I am the Lord, says the Lord of hosts, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Well… first God punishes the Church and scatters her through the world, then the gentiles, seeing this scattering and punishment take occasion and profane the name of God… but at the end they will recognize God.
Are not the gentiles the same as “non-Jews”? Did this already happen or we have to wait for the fulfillment of this prophecy?

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24 For I will take you from among the Gentiles, and will gather you together out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.

[/b]

What? Now he takes the Church again from among the Gentiles and gather her “out of all the countries and bring her into her land”? Which is the land of the Church? Is not the whole earth? Is Rome? Jerusalem?

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25 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.

[/b]

Ohh, so now we see that the Church is filth and she worships idols? :shocked:

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26 And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them.

Same as before. The Church has a stony heart and doesn´t walk in God´s commandments? Is not the same as saying she is sinner?

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28 And you shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers…

God gave to the fathers of the Church, whoever they are, a land? Which one? Heaven? Rome? Jerusalem?

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and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Is not the Church the people of God? Why does He say here she is not or won´t be?

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29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for corn, and will multiply it, and will lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that you bear no more the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 And you shall remember your wicked ways, and your doings that were not good: and your iniquities, and your wicked deeds shall displease you. 32 It is not for your sakes that I will do this, says the Lord God, be it known to you: be confounded, and ashamed at your own ways, O house of Israel.

Again, is not saying here that the Church is a sinner?

The rest of the chapter is but a repetition of what was said.

Cristian · « **Reply #82 on:** May 21, 2011, 08:30:35 AM »

I think there are several reasons why we can´t apply Ez. 36 to Babylonian captivity either:

1) God promises the “whole nation” a coming back. It is very well known that the famous 10 tribes which were taken by the Assyrians never came back, but only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

Verse 10: “And I will multiply men upon you, and all the house of Israel: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the ruinous places shall be repaired.”

2) God promises them to give them “greater gifts”. After the return they remain subject to some foreign dominator. The kingdom of David never reemerged after Babylon. So they clearly had in a much worst situation than before.

3) He promises them they will recognize Him, the true God. This implies that the time the prophet refers to is one in which Jews will not recognize Him. This can be said just after Our Lord´s rejection.

Verse 11: “And I will make you abound with men and with beasts: and they shall be multiplied, and increased: and I will settle you as from the beginning, and will give you greater gifts, than you had from the beginning: and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

4) God promises them they won´t be insulted any more by the gentiles…

Verse 15: “Neither will I cause men to hear in you the shame of the nations any more, nor shall you bear the reproach of the people, nor lose your nation any more, says the Lord God.”

5) Jews will be scattered “among the nations”.

Verse 19: “And I scattered them among the nations, and they are dispersed through the countries: I have judged them according to their ways, and their devices.”

6) He will bring them back “into their own land, out of all the countries”, not just Babylon.

Verse 24: “For I will take you from among the Gentiles, and will gather you together out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land”.

7) God promises to purify them completely. Obviously this has not happened yet.
Verse 25: “And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.” Same as verse 33.

8) The gentiles will recognize the true God after seeing the great things He´ll do for the Jews.

Verse 36: “And the nations, that shall be left round about you, shall know that I the Lord have built up what was destroyed, and planted what was desolate, that I the Lord have spoken and done it.”

Cristian · « **Reply #83 on:** May 21, 2011, 08:43:46 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

I take both literally.

I´m glad we agree on this! :)

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I also understand that their present actions are, in se, abominable

You mean all measures taken by the state of the Jews are abominable or just some/ many?

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and they are, in a sense, farther from conversion than ever.

Well, in another sense they are closer.

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This discussion is about having an actual right to the land they are stealing daily -- and they have no such right.

Yes, this is the true discussion. It seems to me the willing of God is not just permissive with regard to the foundation of the Jєωιѕн state.

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Further, they murder men, women and children as they stretch their illegally-held lands.

I will never say these assassinations are right, and I accept they have even stolen some lands. But the discussion is if they had/have any right to some part of the Holy Land. As I said before one thing is the legitimacy of a state or government and other the legitimacy of the laws. The fact that a state be anti Catholic doesn´t mean it is an unlawful state or government.

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They use white phosphorous as they go about their diabolical business. Do you know what that does to people? I can get you some photos if you need them. The ZioNaizs are THE racists par excellence and they should be opposed with all possible strength, not coddled or pitied.

The use of those bombs, as far as I know, are considered immoral so I will never defend its use. And no, no pics are necessary, I imagine how awful it should be.

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Prophecies about their conversion have nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of their present actions

I agree!

Cristian · « **Reply #84 on:** May 21, 2011, 08:53:21 AM »

Quote from: Darcy

Are we still talking about the same Jews?

I was under the impression that those that say they are "Jews" be they religious, secular, atheists and/or ethnically descended from the Khazars are NOT of the original tribes that were lost.
So these "Jєωιѕн" people are NOT truly Jews at all neither ethnically or religiously. But they just claim to be the original Jews who are favored by God.
The Jєωιѕн religion that is practiced today for the most part is тαℓмυdism/Phariseeism which Jesus condemned in the real Jєωιѕн people of His time who are of the lost tribes now. I think that makes it very confusing. Like they want it to be.
:confused1:
I see the current "Jew" claimants of today as a political organization who have acquired for themselves special privileges and powers.
In actuality there are probably an extremely small number of true "Jews" in the world today.

Clarification appreciated :thinking:

Well I wish I´d have all the answers... my point is that Jews were scattered through all nations as a chastisement of their sins, mainly the crucification of Our Divine Saviour, but it is also prophesied they will some day come back there and eventually convert. The first part of the prophesy, namely their punishment, was patent, the second has to be what we have seen since 1948, I found no other explanation of those many texts. And the third part of it we are still waiting for it, but we know it will happen.