BTW Cristian I will reply to your questions to me, its just that it takes me time to put it together and I don't have a lot of time ATM.

Quote from: Cristian

What I can`t understand though is why the only thing they can get from God are punishments and chastisements and we turn back to crystal clear prophesies regarding their restoration/conversion.

That may just have something to do with the fact that they do everything in their power to mock and insult Him!  :idea:

Sorry I didn´t mean what it sounded like :)

What I meant was this: why is it that we just apply to them the prophesies related to their punishment and when God promises He will pardon them we say nothing?

For instance, when on Luke XXI, it is announced: "24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captives into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles till the times of the nations be fulfilled."

Yet when Moise said: "The Lord your God will bring back again your captivity, and will have mercy on you, and gather you again out of all the nations, into which he scattered you before." (Deut. XXX, 3)

Isaiah

XXVII, 12: "And it shall come to pass, that in that day the Lord will strike from the channel of the river even to the torrent of Egypt, and you shall be gathered together one by one, O you children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass, that in that day a noise shall be made with a great trumpet, and they that were lost, shall come from the land of the Assyrians, and they that were outcasts in the land of Egypt, and they shall adore the Lord in the holy mount in Jerusalem."

43; 1-6: "And now thus says the Lord that created you, O Jacob, and formed you, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed you, and called you by your name: you are mine. 2 When you shall pass through the waters, I will be with you, and the rivers shall not cover you: when you shall walk in the fire, you shall not be burnt, and the flames shall not burn in you: 3 For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Saviour: I have given Egypt for your atonement, Ethiopia and Saba for you. 4 Since you became honourable in my eyes, you are glorious: I have loved you, and I will give men for you, and people for your life. 5 Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your seed from the east, and gather you from the west. 6 I will say to the north: Give up: and to the south: Keep not back: bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth"

Jeremiah.

23; 3-8: "And I will gather together the remnant of my flock, out of all the lands into which I have cast them out: and I will make them return to their own fields, and they shall increase and be multiplied. 4 And I will set up pastors over them, and they shall feed them: they shall fear no more, and they shall not be dismayed: and none shall be wanting of their number, says the Lord. 5 Behold the days come, says the Lord, and I will raise up to David a just branch: and a king shall reign, and shall be wise: and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In those days shall Juda be saved, and Israel shall dwell confidently: and this is the name that they shall call him: The Lord our just one. 7 Therefore behold the days come, says the Lord, and they shall say no more: The Lord lives, who brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt: 8 But, The Lord lives, who has brought out, and brought hither the seed of the house of Israel from the land of the north, and out of all the lands, to which I had cast them forth: and they shall dwell in their own land.

Chapters 30 and 31, complete (I don´t quote them here... too long)

Ch. 32; 37-41: "Behold I will gather them together out of all the lands to which I have cast them out in my anger, and in my wrath, and in my great indignation: and I will bring them again into this place, and will cause them to dwell securely. 38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me all days: and that it may be well with them, and with their children after them. 40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, and will not cease to do them good: and I will give my fear in their heart, that they may not revolt from me. 41 And I will rejoice over them, when I shall do them good: and I will plant them in this land in truth, with my whole heart, and with all my soul."


See also Baruch, Ch. 4, Ez. ch 36; 11-12.

Amos: 9; 11-15: " In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David, that is fallen: and I will close up the breaches of the walls thereof, and repair what was fallen: and I will rebuild it as in the days of old. 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all nations, because my name is invoked upon them: says the Lord that does these things. 13 Behold the days come, says the Lord, when the ploughman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that sows seed: and the mountains shall drop sweetness, and every hill shall be tilled. 14 And I will bring back the captivity of my people Israel: and they shall build the abandoned cities, and inhabit them: and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine of them: and shall make gardens, and eat the fruits of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their own land: and I will no more pluck them out of their land which I have given them, says the Lord your God."

(to be continued)

There is really no need to continue, Cristian, unless you confine yourself to ONLY those prophecies which certainly refer/apply to the now-long-since-perfidious Judaics.  Most of the ones you have listed can be interpreted as having nothing to do with modern Judaics.  What is more, we are all agreed that the perfidious Judaics WILL be converted (and probably quite soon).  That has nothing to do with the question of their present, evil actions.

Does God want them turning the Holy Land into an outdoor prison, using white phosphorous (which is VERY nasty stuff) on women and children, too?  Probably not.

Quote from: Cristian

It clearly refers not to the Babylonian captivity.

When was it written?

Quote

It says "out of all countries", therefore this has to mean after 70 a.D. where they were scattered into all nations.

Perhaps, perhaps not.  I cannot say, as I do not know when it was written.  Further, MANY prophecies that had application to the OT Israelites ALSO have application to the Church, the true Israel.

Look, we ALL know and agree that the perfidious Judaics WILL be converted.  That is NOT in dispute.  What IS being disputed is whether or not the Judaics, even whilst they are still rotting in perfidy, have anything like a legitimate claim on the Holy Land.  I say they do not.  Their decades-long criminal behavior while there seems to be a noticeable point against them, too.

It has nothing to do when it was written, although it was probably under the Babylonian captivity.

It has nothing to do when it was written, although it was probably under the Babylonian captivity.

I would not say the date of composition has NO bearing.   I will look it up and see if there is any commentary that can shed some light on it for us.  When it was composed always has SOME relevance, although there are other considerations, too.

It says "out of all countries", therefore this has to mean after 70 a.D. where they were scattered into all nations.

Who constitutes Israel post-70 AD?  The Church, no?  She is the true Israel.

From the Douay commentary on the text just before the one cited:

[15] "Nor lose thy nation any more"... This whole promise principally relates to the church of Christ, and God's perpetual protection of her: for as to the carnal Jews, they have been removed out of their land these sixteen hundred years.

This is from a simple Bible.  There are others which would give more info, but I no longer possess them.

If one were to read the whole chapters (preferably the whole books) from which the quoted prophecies were taken you would also find prophecies of punishment like this one...

And now I will show you what I will do to my vinyard. I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be wasted: I will break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down.
And I will make it desolate: it shall not be pruned, and it shall not be digged: but briars and thorns shall come up: and I will command the clouds to rain no rain upon it.
For the vineyard of of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel: and the man of Juda, his pleasant plant: and I looked that he should do judgment, and behold iniquity: and do justice, and behold a cry.
Woe to you that join house to house and lay field to field, even to the end of the place: shall you alone dwell in the midst of the earth?


This is one of the more pleasant passages of Isaias. What follows it is condemnations and threats of destruction.

 I find it odd that people will absorb and quote the good and joyous parts of scripture, yet be oblivious to the condemnations and warnings of God that sandwich them in the same book, and often within the same chapter! But what's disturbing is that this is often done when discussing the Jews and their standing with God.