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Author Topic: Is Francis still pope?  (Read 13182 times)

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Offline josh987654321

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Re: Is Francis still pope?
« Reply #105 on: August 20, 2024, 03:52:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 18, 2024, 10:12:58 AM
    That's right, but when something has been taught and believed always and everywhere by all of the faithful all of the time - that truth is infallible.

    You can look this up, search for Vincentian Canon and you will see the below summary is spot on accurate.

    I like the way Fr. Wathen sums up the Vincentian Canon in one of his sermons....Let us now apply this to sedevacantism, I am interested in your thoughts here.....

    "...Which is to say that any idea that has not been held as a part of Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people, is not Catholic. Which is to say that at any given time an idea can be widely held even by the vast majority of the people, as is liberalism among Catholics today.

    Also an heretical idea (sedevacantism?) can be shown to have been held by a small group of people within the Church all through history or during a number of generations of history. But the true doctrine of the Church is that which has been held always by everyone..."

    This is completely wrong IMO.

    It's like when the Orthodox say no to the Filioque... I don't consider it 'that' big of a deal, but I do think the Filioque is correct and important... after all John 15:26 (But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.) and John 16:7 (But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.)

    This convinces me of the Filioque... First not only does He say it'll proceed from the Father (we all agree here), but that Christ will send it and also that if Christ does not go then the Holy Spirit will not come to them, if the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, then I don't understand the need for this IMO. 

    So yes this was added to the Nicene Creed at a much later date... but at what point does it just 'stop' and there can be nothing further? (I believe Co-Redemptrix needs to be added at a future date by a future legitimately elected Pope) If I said only the Apostles Creed and rejected the Nicene Creed then I wouldn't exactly be wrong per sae but would I be correct per sae? I say both, usually the Apostles Creed because it's shorter lol.

    In the same way, at what point does it become a 'majority' or 'always held'? Who defines that and what did the early Christians have to ground them if this was the case? The early Christians didn't have a majority rules track record to go on, they had no track record at all other than Galatians 1:8 (But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.) now that's no majority rules or majority of people over time.

    Furthermore, in relation to the gates of hell not prevailing Matthew 16:18-19 (And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.), This is in direct reference to St Peter who is the New Aaron of the Old Covenant for the New Covenant, just as Christ is the New Moses of the Old Covenant for the New Covenant... Aaron made the golden calf and St Peter denied Him three times... St Peter was there at Jesus' transfiguration and Aaron was there at Moses transfiguration or shinning face... Moses gave us the Ten Commandments and Jesus gave us the word made flesh (Matthew 17 This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him... the six days, the mountain, Moses and Elias there etc)... Then you've got the Ark of the New Covenant, New Queen Mother, New Manna, New Passover etc etc.

    Those are my thoughts on it.

    "Our Lady of Victory, Ark of the New Covenant, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, Pray for us."

    God Bless
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    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #106 on: August 20, 2024, 04:57:16 AM »
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    • Furthermore, I forgot to add too, remember that Aaron was the Vicar of Moses before Pharaoh.

    Exodus 7:1-2 (And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak to him all that I command thee; and he shall speak to Pharao, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.)

    Now the gates of hell not prevailing are in direction relation to St Peter the Vicar of Christ and St Peter is in direct relation to Aaron the Vicar of Moses, who will speak on Moses' behalf (Moses and Christ, Aaron and St Peter) it also shows us that they are capable of erring as Aaron and St Peter did. We can also see that in the Old Covenant and line of succession of High Priest they also made a mess of it too with usurpers and some questionable figures, but the setup is the same.

    Therefore, the question is only whether Bergoglio was legitimately elected or not and the answer is most certainly no for many reasons I have outlined above and we already had a Pope... Pope Benedict XVI, who was either the Vicar of Christ or he was not and nobody can depose him regardless of what we think of him.

    Therefore I don't really care what Bergoglio says and does anymore, he could turn around tomorrow and be the most orthodox guy and do everything I ever dreamed or wanted and it would all be completely irrelevant as it doesn't change anything IMO. The heresies and bad teaching and example simply prompted me to look into it as something had to be wrong.

    "Our Lady of Victory, Ark of the New Covenant, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, Pray for us." 

    God Bless
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #107 on: August 20, 2024, 05:38:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: josh987654321 on August 20, 2024, 03:52:26 AM

    This is completely wrong IMO.

    It's like when the Orthodox say no to the Filioque... I don't consider it 'that' big of a deal, but I do think the Filioque is correct and important... after all John 15:26 
    Denying the Filioque is a denial of the Trinity, as there would be no opposition of relation between the Son and the Holy Ghost. Also the Fathers taught the Filioque.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #108 on: August 20, 2024, 05:56:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 19, 2024, 06:25:22 PM
    You're one of those that holds that the public sin of manifest formal heresy does not by its nature separate the heretic from the Church.  Correct?
    I'm the one who is merely pointing out that a pope, Paul IV, teaches that the pope can indeed be a heretic and that if a pope is a heretic, we are to not listen to him.  

    I mean, this is what he begins cuм ex with, he begins with essentially saying that the very idea of a heretical pope is horrifying to him; "we have been weighed upon by the thought...so grave and so dangerous..." He is teaching that there is one and only one thing that can be done about a heretical pope - not listen to him. Not sure why he did not include praying for him. 

    I understand he blows the idea of "a heretic can't be pope" right out of the water here, yet there it is, taught by the  pope himself in no uncertain terms.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #109 on: August 20, 2024, 06:01:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on August 20, 2024, 05:38:51 AM
    Denying the Filioque is a denial of the Trinity, as there would be no opposition of relation between the Son and the Holy Ghost. Also the Fathers taught the Filioque.

    When they don't use the Filioque in the Nicene Creed, they are using the original Nicene Creed and on top of that, they are literally copying exactly what it says in scripture with 'proceedeth from the Father'  John 15:26... So it's not exactly wrong per sae. Are all those who used the original Nicene Creed Trinity deniers? Was St John because of that passage in the Gospels? It depends what they mean when they don't use it IMO.

    God Bless
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #110 on: August 20, 2024, 06:24:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: josh987654321 on August 20, 2024, 03:52:26 AM

    In the same way, at what point does it become a 'majority' or 'always held'? Who defines that and what did the early Christians have to ground them if this was the case? The early Christians didn't have a majority rules track record to go on, they had no track record at all other than Galatians 1:8 (But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.) now that's no majority rules or majority of people over time.
    Well, it seems to me that you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. We don't need to know if it's been held by what number or held always, we only need to know the idea is new. In this case, we know the idea is new because no one ever heard of it in tradition at all. Although a few centuries ago the idea was sparsely speculated upon, it never went beyond that. So because we know that the idea is new, we know it was not held always by everyone, rather it was held by no one ever, which per the Canon makes the idea not Catholic. Agree?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #111 on: August 20, 2024, 06:35:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 20, 2024, 05:56:03 AM
    I'm the one who is merely pointing out that a pope, Paul IV, teaches that the pope can indeed be a heretic and that if a pope is a heretic, we are to not listen to him.

    Wow!  This contradicts that the Church teaching that the public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.  Being separated from the Church means no longer being a member.  No longer being a member means the heretic cannot be pope.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #112 on: August 20, 2024, 06:56:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: josh987654321 on August 20, 2024, 06:01:38 AM
    When they don't use the Filioque in the Nicene Creed, they are using the original Nicene Creed and on top of that, they are literally copying exactly what it says in scripture with 'proceedeth from the Father'  John 15:26... So it's not exactly wrong per sae. Are all those who used the original Nicene Creed Trinity deniers? Was St John because of that passage in the Gospels? It depends what they mean when they don't use it IMO.

    God Bless
    Other Church councils have taught the Filioque. Also they hold other heresies like real distinction between essence and energies, that the Light of Transfiguration was uncreated and the denial of the Papacy, these are just some of the issues.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #113 on: August 20, 2024, 07:35:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 20, 2024, 06:35:48 AM
    Wow!  This contradicts that the Church teaching that the public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.  Being separated from the Church means no longer being a member.  No longer being a member means the heretic cannot be pope.
    Not according to Pope Paul IV.

    Are you saying he was wrong?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #114 on: August 20, 2024, 07:44:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 20, 2024, 06:24:10 AM
    Well, it seems to me that you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. We don't need to know if it's been held by what number or held always, we only need to know the idea is new. In this case, we know the idea is new because no one ever heard of it in tradition at all. Although a few centuries ago the idea was sparsely speculated upon, it never went beyond that. So because we know that the idea is new, we know it was not held always by everyone, rather it was held by no one ever, which per the Canon makes the idea not Catholic. Agree?

    'New' has no bearing on it IMO, for the early Christians it was all new.

    The early Christians, just like us, have Galatians 1:8 and Matthew 16:18-19, just like the Old Covenant, they were given the Law from Moses... then Aaron and his successors were his vicar on Earth so to speak. In the New Covenant, we have St Peter becoming the Vicar of Christ with the promise of the gates of hell not prevailing in the exact same passage and line where he is made the rock of the Church and given the keys too... now both Aaron and St Peter erred, but they were still the Vicars of Moses and Christ respectively... that's what we have... therefore the only question IMO is whether he was legitimately elected or not... I know Pope Benedict XVI was... who they deposed and usurped.

    God Bless
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #115 on: August 20, 2024, 08:04:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: josh987654321 on August 20, 2024, 07:44:53 AM
    'New' has no bearing on it IMO, for the early Christians it was all new.
    But it has everything to do with it, the early Christians had Our Lord and they had the Apostles, which is where all of our Catholic beliefs, every singles solitary one of them originate and come from.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #116 on: August 20, 2024, 08:16:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 20, 2024, 08:04:03 AM
    But it has everything to do with it, the early Christians had Our Lord and they had the Apostles, which is where all of our Catholic beliefs, every singles solitary one of them originate and come from.

    It depends what kind of early we are talking, St Paul was Galatians 1:8 so he wasn't our Lord or one of those who were with Jesus during His earthly life like St John etc and when it comes to the Diocletian persecutions they didn't, then the various councils where much was ironed out and declared like the Nicene Creed, Theotokos etc

    It was widely understood by majority of Christians and already believed, but various heresies arose and issues needed to be settled. That's where St Peter comes into it as the successor to the New Aaron of the New Covenant, where the gates of hell will not prevail, the rock upon which Christ builds the Church and he has the keys to bind and loose all in the one passage too Matthew 16:18-19

    God Bless
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #117 on: August 20, 2024, 10:14:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 20, 2024, 07:35:06 AM
    Not according to Pope Paul IV.

    Are you saying he was wrong?

    it is you who are wrong.  Pope Pius XII taught in Mystici Corporis that the public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.  This is the constant teaching of the Church, unanimous teaching of the Fathers, and unanimous teaching of theologians.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #118 on: August 20, 2024, 11:32:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 20, 2024, 10:14:13 AM
    it is you who are wrong.  Pope Pius XII taught in Mystici Corporis that the public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.  This is the constant teaching of the Church, unanimous teaching of the Fathers, and unanimous teaching of theologians.
    I'm not wrong, I am simply quoting Pope Paul IV. So what you are saying is that Pope Pius IV is wrong.

    The truth is that Pope Paul IV and Pope Pius XII are of course both right. So how is it that you think Pope Paul IV is wrong? If, as Pope Paul IV said, you do not judge the pope, you will see that both popes are of course, right. It's just that simple.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Hewkonian

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #119 on: August 20, 2024, 05:18:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 12:54:06 PM
    Except that since Vatican II, some traditional Catholic have added a new doctrine regarding how a Pope can vacate his office. The new doctrine says that a manifest heretical Pope has vacated his office, even though it looks like he's still sitting in the chair, but really he isn't. And this is the new Church teaching that they want us to accept.
    If this were indeed the case, it would represent the ultimate тαℓмυdic subversion.
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