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Author Topic: Is Francis still pope?  (Read 13252 times)

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Offline josh987654321

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Re: Is Francis still pope?
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2024, 11:11:33 AM »
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  • The Arian crisis has so many parallels for today's Church crisis. The late Michael Davies did a lot of research into the subject.

    I never knew the whole story of Celestine V and Boniface VIII. Sculduggery was of course going on back then too. I too try to not judge the VII popes too harshly, though of course they have all been Modernists, to one degree or another. Bp. Williamson has said that there was something decent about B16, which I agree with.

    I think the Arian heresy is so easily debunked by John 8:58, Before Abraham was I am, the 'I am' in relation to the name of God given to Moses in Exodus 3:14, that's why they wanted to stone Him to death right then and there... then we have John 14:9 and so many others, if you've seen Christ you've seen the Father, the Father and Christ are one, how sayeth thou show us the father etc.

    When they start ranking the trinity it's like communism... equal but some are more equal than others lol a stepping stone to other heresies like Nestorianism and denying the Queen of Heaven IMO.


    That being said, I think the violent manner in which they dealt with some of these things often exacerbated the problem, it's enough for the Holy Father (legitimately elected) to rule on it and let them be anathema and simply pray that they come back and evangelize them.

    In terms of St Pope Celestine V and Boniface VIII, I never knew of this until others such as Ed Mazza talked about it, then I looked into myself and was amazed at what I found... Pope Benedict XVI made a significant point in regards to St Pope Celestine V as he intended to follow in the Saints footsteps.

    April 2009, Pope Benedict XVI leaves his pallium at the tomb of St Pope Celestine V.



    Now what were those footsteps exactly... St Pope Celestine V came from a very humble and quiet background during a period of crisis in the Church, he was slandered as being inept and ineffectual IMO because he would not rule with an iron fist, as entire Kingdoms depended on the Papacy at this time... then we have Cardinals pressuring him to resign, among them Cardinal Benedetto Ceatani (Boniface VIII) who would then become his 'successor' this alone is already incredibly suspicious, but then as St Pope Celestine V tries to return to his prior quiet monastic life he is arrested and imprisoned by this so called successor... I mean, many Catholics question Vatican II and rightly so... but how can this obvious one be accepted on face value for so long? Who arrests and imprisons their predecessor, where he soon dies... if it was of their own free will and everything was legit? That's obviously foul play!

    St Pope Celestine V - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V


    Quote
    The former Celestine, now reverted to Pietro Angelerio, was not allowed to become a hermit once again. Various parties had opposed his resignation and the new Pope Boniface VIII had reason to worry that one of them might install him as an antipope. To prevent this, he ordered Pietro to accompany him to Rome. Pietro escaped and hid in the woods before attempting to return to Sulmona to resume monastic life. This proved impossible, and Pietro was captured after an attempt to flee to Dalmatia was thwarted when a tempest forced his ship to return to port. Boniface imprisoned him in the castle of Fumone near Ferentino in Lazio, attended by two monks of his order, where Pietro died after 10 months at about the age of 81. His supporters spread the allegation that Boniface had treated him harshly and ultimately executed Pietro, but there is no clear historical evidence of this.

    "no clear historical evidence of this" LOL! Nothing says 'free' and 'fair' like arresting and imprisoning your predecessor where he soon dies under ? circuмstances.

    Boniface VIII formalized the 'resignation' clause... soon after it would send the Church into the Avignon Papacy crisis and several antipopes. Since it's before Vatican II many people simply don't want to look at it so Boniface and all he did gets a free pass sadly IMO.

    In another article "The resignation of Celestine in 1295 provided the spiritual and legal groundwork for Benedict." ... of course it did, surprise, surprise lol... Pope Benedict XVI had to know the fate of poor St Pope Celestine V... as Pope Benedict XVI once lamented, that his authority ends at the door... surrounded on all sides, already foiled one assassination attempt, Wikileaks exposed them conducting a 'Catholic Spring' and later that same year in 2014 after he was deposed Victoria Nuland was in Ukraine handing out food to protesters as they conduct their violent coup there. Pope Benedict XVI IMO was just one more victim among a long line of regime changes. This is why IMO the Church cannot be restored until the USA Deep State goes down, I know their hands were involved in Vatican II too, like I said, Church Committee and JFK assassination all occurred during the same time period. 

    "Our Lady of Victory, Ark of the New Covenant, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, Pray for us."

    God Bless

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #76 on: August 17, 2024, 01:48:08 PM »
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  • The problem is that if the gates of hell are not to prevail against Christ's Church, then a heretic being validly elected Pope should not be possible in the first place, you can't have it both ways, either they were not validly elected or they were, either they were never the valid successor to St Peter or they were the valid successor to St Peter, you can't change your mind half way through and on whose authority? Thus it's a circular argument IMO and cannot work.

    God Bless
    You're creating a circular argument, one that does not exist. The presumption is validity, not invalidity. All the cardinals who voted in the conclave accepted his election, and we must also. No matter the "proof," it is an exercise in futility to attempt to prove invalidity of any papal election.
     
    The thinking in your first sentence above is altogether contrary to the belief that binds us as regards the Church's indefectibility. I mean, Christ's promise is the Divine Revelation that tells us in no uncertain terms that the gates of hell will not prevail. So as far as that goes, the Church's indefectibility, being foundational, is not only not any concern of ours, it is our, well, our foundation that without, everything has already crumbled and hell prevailed.

     The correct thinking is in knowing with certainty of faith that the Gates of hell will not prevail no matter what. Because we are absolutely certain of this we must also be certain that even *with* evil, apostate, heretic popes sitting in the Chair till, God forbid, the end of time, the gates of hell will still not prevail.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #77 on: August 17, 2024, 01:59:58 PM »
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  • Whether you deny it or not, the fact remains is that you are making a judgment in contradiction to the judgment of him who you accept as a true pope.  You are basing your judgment on reason enlightened by Faith.  It is the same process used to make the judgment that Jorge Bergoglio is not a true pope.
    This is not true. I am remaining faithful, not judging anything or anyone. Of course by remaining faithful to the true faith, I am doing as cuм ex directed us - contradicting the V2 popes - but we do this to remain faithful to truth rather than man - even though that man is pope(s).

    Judging popes to not be popes is contrary to what the Church, in her infinite wisdom has always taught, disobeying bad laws based on Church teaching is what Catholics do, this is what the Church expects of her faithful children regardless of heretical popes.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #78 on: August 17, 2024, 02:03:28 PM »
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  • If the Church could just get a few more of these men everything would be alright...


    :laugh1:

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #79 on: August 17, 2024, 02:15:48 PM »
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  • The correct thinking is in knowing with certainty of faith that the Gates of hell will not prevail no matter what. Because we are absolutely certain of this we must also be certain that even *with* evil, apostate, heretic popes sitting in the Chair till, God forbid, the end of time, the gates of hell will still not prevail.

    As I understand it, this means that no pope will ever OFFICIALLY define a heresy, or officially deny a truth of faith. A pope can say what he likes on an airplane or to a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, but that is merely a personal sin, not a gate of hell for the Church. 


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #80 on: August 17, 2024, 04:22:08 PM »
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  • Judging popes to not be popes is contrary to what the Church, in her infinite wisdom has always taught.....

    Where has the Church taught this?

    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #81 on: August 17, 2024, 10:33:33 PM »
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  • You're creating a circular argument, one that does not exist. The presumption is validity, not invalidity. All the cardinals who voted in the conclave accepted his election, and we must also. No matter the "proof," it is an exercise in futility to attempt to prove invalidity of any papal election.
     
    The thinking in your first sentence above is altogether contrary to the belief that binds us as regards the Church's indefectibility. I mean, Christ's promise is the Divine Revelation that tells us in no uncertain terms that the gates of hell will not prevail. So as far as that goes, the Church's indefectibility, being foundational, is not only not any concern of ours, it is our, well, our foundation that without, everything has already crumbled and hell prevailed.

     The correct thinking is in knowing with certainty of faith that the Gates of hell will not prevail no matter what. Because we are absolutely certain of this we must also be certain that even *with* evil, apostate, heretic popes sitting in the Chair till, God forbid, the end of time, the gates of hell will still not prevail.

    Just because a 'majority' accept something does not make it so, the truth is not subject to majority rules, especially in light of new information.

    Absolutely certain of what exactly? Many other Christians say the same thing but are all so vague about 'the gates of hell prevailing' that it's rendered entirely meaningless. Yea we can be absolutely sure of something that cannot be clearly defined by anyone apparently.

    Christ said this in relation to making St Peter the rock, the New High Priest of the New Covenant... the New Aaron in a single line of succession... now they sure made a mess of it with the Old Covenant too with Annas and Caiaphas etc, why did they bring Christ to Annas first (who didn't pronounce judgement) if Caiaphas were the legitimate High Priest.

    So while it's quite messy trying to work it all out, we do have a legitimate High Priest of the New Covenant (Pope) who we pray for and owe allegiance to when it comes to ex cathedra. I can't pick and choose anymore than you can, which is why I can't just write them all off because I dislike and don't trust much of what went on around Vatican II... it's only Bergoglio I can do so because I have solid grounds for rejecting Pope Benedict XVI's faux 'resignation' and that faux election... therefore when I say such things it doesn't matter who Bergoglio is or what he has done... his heresies are merely a bonus that point to something being seriously wrong and looking further into it precisely because the gates of hell should never prevail.

    With such vague explanations of 'the gates of hell prevailing' then IMO a Pope can literally do and say anything they want as there is then no such thing as a line in the sand or point of no return. Remember, this was given in direct relation to St Peter who is the High Priest of the New Covenant... the new Aaron of the Old Covenant, also why St Peter was with Christ during the transfiguration where God the Father said "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him" whereas Aaron was with Moses when he was transfigured coming from Mount Sinai where he received the Ten Commandments. Christ being the New Moses and St Peter being the New Aaron.

    God Bless

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #82 on: August 18, 2024, 12:08:45 AM »
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  • I think the Arian heresy is so easily debunked by John 8:58, Before Abraham was I am, the 'I am' in relation to the name of God given to Moses in Exodus 3:14, that's why they wanted to stone Him to death right then and there... then we have John 14:9 and so many others, if you've seen Christ you've seen the Father, the Father and Christ are one, how sayeth thou show us the father etc.

    When they start ranking the trinity it's like communism... equal but some are more equal than others lol a stepping stone to other heresies like Nestorianism and denying the Queen of Heaven IMO.


    That being said, I think the violent manner in which they dealt with some of these things often exacerbated the problem, it's enough for the Holy Father (legitimately elected) to rule on it and let them be anathema and simply pray that they come back and evangelize them.

    In terms of St Pope Celestine V and Boniface VIII, I never knew of this until others such as Ed Mazza talked about it, then I looked into myself and was amazed at what I found... Pope Benedict XVI made a significant point in regards to St Pope Celestine V as he intended to follow in the Saints footsteps.

    April 2009, Pope Benedict XVI leaves his pallium at the tomb of St Pope Celestine V.



    Now what were those footsteps exactly... St Pope Celestine V came from a very humble and quiet background during a period of crisis in the Church, he was slandered as being inept and ineffectual IMO because he would not rule with an iron fist, as entire Kingdoms depended on the Papacy at this time... then we have Cardinals pressuring him to resign, among them Cardinal Benedetto Ceatani (Boniface VIII) who would then become his 'successor' this alone is already incredibly suspicious, but then as St Pope Celestine V tries to return to his prior quiet monastic life he is arrested and imprisoned by this so called successor... I mean, many Catholics question Vatican II and rightly so... but how can this obvious one be accepted on face value for so long? Who arrests and imprisons their predecessor, where he soon dies... if it was of their own free will and everything was legit? That's obviously foul play!

    St Pope Celestine V - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V


    "no clear historical evidence of this" LOL! Nothing says 'free' and 'fair' like arresting and imprisoning your predecessor where he soon dies under ? circuмstances.

    Boniface VIII formalized the 'resignation' clause... soon after it would send the Church into the Avignon Papacy crisis and several antipopes. Since it's before Vatican II many people simply don't want to look at it so Boniface and all he did gets a free pass sadly IMO.

    In another article "The resignation of Celestine in 1295 provided the spiritual and legal groundwork for Benedict." ... of course it did, surprise, surprise lol... Pope Benedict XVI had to know the fate of poor St Pope Celestine V... as Pope Benedict XVI once lamented, that his authority ends at the door... surrounded on all sides, already foiled one assassination attempt, Wikileaks exposed them conducting a 'Catholic Spring' and later that same year in 2014 after he was deposed Victoria Nuland was in Ukraine handing out food to protesters as they conduct their violent coup there. Pope Benedict XVI IMO was just one more victim among a long line of regime changes. This is why IMO the Church cannot be restored until the USA Deep State goes down, I know their hands were involved in Vatican II too, like I said, Church Committee and JFK assassination all occurred during the same time period. 

    "Our Lady of Victory, Ark of the New Covenant, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, Pray for us."

    God Bless
    I have never accepted Boniface as a Pope for no other reason than his alleged election is simoniocal(sp?)-- mucho more than could ever be alleged against Alexander. Additionally there are those who think he murdered St Celestine. BTW-- it took about 2 weeks after the death of Boniface for the Church to recognse Celestine as a Saint. :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #83 on: August 18, 2024, 12:26:55 AM »
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  • I have never accepted Boniface as a Pope for no other reason than his alleged election is simoniocal(sp?)-- mucho more than could ever be alleged against Alexander. Additionally there are those who think he murdered St Celestine. BTW-- it took about 2 weeks after the death of Boniface for the Church to recognse Celestine as a Saint. :popcorn:

    "simoniocal(sp?)" ?? Can you expand on this please?

    Alexander the Tsar?

    I think it's certainly plausible that St Celestine V was murdered... but there is no way to know for sure, what I do know for sure is that not only did we have Boniface VIII encouraging this 'resignation' thing, but then arresting and imprisoning him and it was Boniface VIII who formalized the clause... There is just no way... So 'free', 'fair' and 'legit' that St Celestine V had to be arrested and imprisoned by his 'successor' out of fear lol.

    In terms of 'Saint' I mean, there are so many disputed today, I almost can't call anyone a 'St' other than the apostles themselves... In any case I don't think it's a big deal to argue this point, can't always know for absolute certainty anyway, especially when figures like Boniface VIII canonized some IMO.

    God Bless

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #84 on: August 18, 2024, 02:24:26 AM »
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  • One of the numerous calumnies alleged  against Pope Alex VI is simony..... :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #85 on: August 18, 2024, 10:00:48 AM »
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  • As I understand it, this means that no pope will ever OFFICIALLY define a heresy, or officially deny a truth of faith. A pope can say what he likes on an airplane or to a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, but that is merely a personal sin, not a gate of hell for the Church.
    What we can say is that the dogma on his infallibility is stated quite clearly in V1, which states he is infallible when he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals ex cathedra. Beyond that, he is as fallible as you and I and can do and say all the evil things the conciliar popes have done and said in their teachings - just exactly the same as you or I could do.   

    "...If these two Doctrines [Infallibility and Indefectibility] be true, then whatever the popes have said or done, whatever they ever say or do, will not be a violation of the Church's attribute of infallibility. And no matter what anyone does, whether from within or without, he will not succeed in destroying the Church. The enemies of Christ's Church do not believe this, which explains why they will never cease to try..." - Fr. Wathen from his book: Who Shall Ascend?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #86 on: August 18, 2024, 10:04:06 AM »
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  • Where has the Church taught this?
    Well, there's Canon Law's decree that the First See is to be judged by no one, but before that there's Pope Paul IV's cuм ex.
    1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought
    that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman
    Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the
    fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world,
    may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #87 on: August 18, 2024, 10:12:58 AM »
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  • Just because a 'majority' accept something does not make it so, the truth is not subject to majority rules, especially in light of new information.
    That's right, but when something has been taught and believed always and everywhere by all of the faithful all of the time - that truth is infallible.

    You can look this up, search for Vincentian Canon and you will see the below summary is spot on accurate.

    I like the way Fr. Wathen sums up the Vincentian Canon in one of his sermons....
    Quote
    "...One of the saints, [St. Vincent of Lerins (died 445)] whose name I cannot remember, for which I apologize, made a statement concerning heresy and orthodoxy which I find both wonderfully intriguing as well as important.

    He says that the true faith is that which has been held by all people, that is, all the faithful people in the Church, all the time.

     Which is to say that any idea that has not been held as a part of Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people, is not Catholic. Which is to say that at any given time an idea can be widely held even by the vast majority of the people, as is liberalism among Catholics today.

    Also an heretical idea can be shown to have been held by a small group of people within the Church all through history or during a number of generations of history. But the true doctrine of the Church is that which has been held always by everyone..."
    Let us now apply this to sedevacantism, I am interested in your thoughts here.....

    "...Which is to say that any idea that has not been held as a part of Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people, is not Catholic. Which is to say that at any given time an idea can be widely held even by the vast majority of the people, as is liberalism among Catholics today.

    Also an heretical idea (sedevacantism?) can be shown to have been held by a small group of people within the Church all through history or during a number of generations of history. But the true doctrine of the Church is that which has been held always by everyone..."

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Thed0ctor

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #88 on: August 18, 2024, 10:35:58 AM »
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  • The 1917 code of canon law 188 states a Pope loses his office due to heresy. There's debate on how it irons out but it's not as if sedes pulled the notion out of a hat. 

    The Arian heresy thing I think is a myth. I like to reference this from a CMRI book addressing NFP (see attachment). The text can be found here https://ia902803.us.archive.org/20/items/ContraCrawfordBoD/FinalContraCrawford_ebook_1.1.pdf#page76 and is called Contra Crawford

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #89 on: August 18, 2024, 10:47:54 AM »
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  • The 1917 code of canon law 188 states a Pope loses his office due to heresy. There's debate on how it irons out but it's not as if sedes pulled the notion out of a hat.
    "...The law deprives one under censure of his office and jurisdiction, in order to prevent the cleric involved from using his office to damage the Church and souls. Such is the case with Canon 188, which rules that if an individual (cleric) "abandons" the Faith, he automatically loses his office. The term "abandonment" of the Faith, in this context, does not mean "public heresy," but complete departure from the place where the individual held and exercised his office. Such a person is classified as a "fugitive" and a "fallen-away." Otherwise, an ecclesiastical tribunal must make an examination of the charges that the subject has "abandoned the Faith," find him guilty, declare that the censure has taken effect, and that by virtue of the law and his intransigence, declare him to have been deprived of his office. This authority may then rule as to whether any or all of his official acts were invalid retrospectively.

    It must be understood that when the censure falls upon an individual "automatically," this is only in the "internal forum." An ipso facto excommunication has no effect upon the status of its recipient vis-a-vis the external forum, until the legitimate authorities of the Church establish and certify the incurrence of the censure. Thus, should a bishop preach heresy, he incurs this censure; but he is not thereby expelled from his bishopic, so that his diocese is without a head. That effect of the law occurs only after the juridical requirements  of the Code are fulfilled, and the proper authority ratifies the determinations of the proper ecclesiastical tribunal..." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse