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Author Topic: Is Francis still pope?  (Read 13261 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Is Francis still pope?
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2024, 09:04:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 15, 2024, 09:02:15 AM
    it is a private judgment in conscience made public, which is legitimate when the evidence is sufficient.
    It's not actually legitimate except only to sedes.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #46 on: August 15, 2024, 09:07:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 15, 2024, 09:03:27 AM
    How can a future pope judge a previous pope when an equal cannot judge an equal?
    Is a dead pope equal to a living pope? No.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #47 on: August 15, 2024, 09:34:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 15, 2024, 09:04:38 AM
    It's not actually legitimate except only to sedes.

    Then it's also not legitimate for you to judge that the Novus Ordo Missae is not legitimate.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #48 on: August 15, 2024, 09:38:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 15, 2024, 09:07:21 AM
    Is a dead pope equal to a living pope? No.

    How does death relate to this?  If a man is pope and then dies, his authority as pope at the time he was pope cannot be judged by a future pope because it would be the equivalent of a pope judging his equal.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #49 on: August 15, 2024, 10:09:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 15, 2024, 09:34:01 AM
    Then it's also not legitimate for you to judge that the Novus Ordo Missae is not legitimate.
    The Liturgy of Pope St. Pius V is the only legitimate liturgy of the Roman Rite in perpetuity, we learn this from Quo Primum which is the law that he established. So if you want to sidetrack into this issue, you will need to bring papal authority into the discussion, not papal validity.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #50 on: August 15, 2024, 10:15:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 15, 2024, 09:38:41 AM
    How does death relate to this?  If a man is pope and then dies, his authority as pope at the time he was pope cannot be judged by a future pope because it would be the equivalent of a pope judging his equal.
    One lives and one is dead - yet they are still equal? Aside from that, the popes' authority is supreme, not limitless. Supreme in that the living pope can, if he should decide, to declare the dead pope was invalid - but he will never make such a futile declaration. Declare him a heretic, schismatic and apostate, yes, but invalid? no.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #51 on: August 15, 2024, 10:18:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 15, 2024, 10:09:31 AM
    The Liturgy of Pope St. Pius V is the only legitimate liturgy of the Roman Rite in perpetuity, we learn this from Quo Primum which is the law that he established. So if you want to sidetrack into this issue, you will need to bring papal authority into the discussion, not papal validity.

    Both cases (whether Jorge Bergoglio is pope and whether the Novus Ordo Missae is legitimate) require a judgment on your part using reason enlightened by Faith.
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    Offline cassini

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #52 on: August 15, 2024, 11:23:38 AM »
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    • Searched for similar discussions and found the following:


    Bellarmine and Suarez considered a de facto possibility of an heretical pope. They granted that the Church would have to depose him if he did not self-declare his heresy. They differed on the exact procedure that would be required. Basically, electors would de-designate the man chosen pope. But as such, they had no authority over the papal power itself, which is from God.

    In recent discussions of an heretical pope, the term sedevacante shows up. It means that, if a pope is heretical, his chair is automatically vacant by divine law. Some hold that anyone can so pronounce this vacancy, which would logically make every man his own pope. Bellarmine and Suarez thought the Church, in the persons of a General Council or the assembled Cardinals would have to declare the pope a heretic and depose him. They differed a bit on the exact procedure.

    Several writers imply that suddenly the institution, which seemed so solid over the centuries, appears shaky in its own order. “If the Church succuмbs to modernity, will it still be a Church?” they wonder. The main issues, in the case of Francis, revolve around the indissolubility of marriage, the nature of the papacy itself, and the approval of gαy life as normal. The first is a question of reason and revelation – Moses allowed divorce, Christ did not; the second of revelation; and the third, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, of reason.

    Heretical popes? The essence of Catholicism is that there be none. It is also its essence that, if necessary, the issue be faced squarely and judged fairly.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #53 on: August 15, 2024, 11:27:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 15, 2024, 10:18:43 AM
    Both cases (whether Jorge Bergoglio is pope and whether the Novus Ordo Missae is legitimate) require a judgment on your part using reason enlightened by Faith.
    No it does not. All you need to know is what is legitimate, in knowing what is legitimate, you know what is not.

    Legitimate:
    Pope St. Pius V, Quo Primum:
    "Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in
    perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to
    be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or
    censure, and may freely and lawfully be used..."


    Example of what I said above given by Last Tradhican:
    "U.S. Treasury agents who specialize in forgery detection, when they are being trained, are never shown any forgeries, they are strictly immersed in learning every minute detail of the real thing. That way, they can spot the forgery instantly..."
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #54 on: August 15, 2024, 12:15:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 15, 2024, 08:28:10 AM
    No where in the Traditional teachings of the Catholic Church is it said that the Catholic laity are required to judge as to whether or not a Pope is a manifest heretic.
    No where in the history of the Church has the entire hierarchy been corrupted enough (including the pope) to accept false teachings and say they are Catholic.  The closest example was the Arian heresy.
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #55 on: August 15, 2024, 03:22:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on August 15, 2024, 12:15:32 PM
    No where in the history of the Church has the entire hierarchy been corrupted enough (including the pope) to accept false teachings and say they are Catholic.  The closest example was the Arian heresy.

    Actually, in my opinion, the Arian heresy was just like today, except that the main pope at that time - Pope Liberius - wasn't an Arian, but he went along with the Arians in exiling St. Athanasius. But most of the hierarchy were Arians or semi-Arians. Kind of a miracle that Arianism was condemned at the Council of Nicaea in the year 325, when most of the hierarchy were Arian. 

    But of course, it is believed (though not completely proven) that Pope Liberius was under duress when signing the exile order for St. Athanasius, since he had been kidnaped by the Arians and held in exile himself. Basically, he was kidnapped, and forced to sign the docuмent against St. Atanasius. It was a moment of weakness, but that might be forgivable. The Arians of old were very crafty and at times violent. It wasn't an easier time back then. There's just a lot of time between now and then, and who really studies the situation of the Arian heretics anymore? Hardly anyone. It seems like a boring subject to many. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #56 on: August 15, 2024, 03:58:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: cassini on August 15, 2024, 11:23:38 AM

    Heretical popes? The essence of Catholicism is that there be none. It is also its essence that, if necessary, the issue be faced squarely and judged fairly.

    It is indeed the essence of Catholicism that there be no heretical popes; hence, no actual specific doctrine which says what is to be done with a heretical pope. Has the Church erred in not having a specific doctrine for this situation? 

    I agree that the issue be faced squarely and judged fairly. IMO, a pope who is accused of heresy should be offered a chance to defend himself against the charges. But as of yet no charges have been made, except by a few of the (conciliar) hierarchy. And as such, Francis can ignore it. I have often wondered why Pope St. Pius X didn't call a Council in order to deal with the issue of Modernism once and for all. He must have had a good reason for not doing this, but I can't think of what that might be. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline StAndrew

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #57 on: August 15, 2024, 10:23:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 15, 2024, 03:58:25 PM
    Has the Church erred in not having a specific doctrine for this situation?

    I feel like this is borderline blasphemous: "Has the Church erred?" Would you ask if Our Lord erred? The Immaculate Bride of Christ doesn't err.
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    Offline cassini

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #58 on: August 16, 2024, 05:44:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 15, 2024, 03:58:25 PM
    It is indeed the essence of Catholicism that there be no heretical popes; hence, no actual specific doctrine which says what is to be done with a heretical pope. Has the Church erred in not having a specific doctrine for this situation?

    I agree that the issue be faced squarely and judged fairly. IMO, a pope who is accused of heresy should be offered a chance to defend himself against the charges. But as of yet no charges have been made, except by a few of the (conciliar) hierarchy. And as such, Francis can ignore it. I have often wondered why Pope St. Pius X didn't call a Council in order to deal with the issue of Modernism once and for all. He must have had a good reason for not doing this, but I can't think of what that might be.


    ‘Satan uniquely entered the Catholic Church at some point over the last century, or even before. For over a century, the organizers of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, Liberalism, and Modernism infiltrated the Catholic Church in order to change her doctrine, her liturgy and her mission from something supernatural to something secular.’
    (Taylor Marshall, LifeSiteNews, October 4, 2019.)

    Modernism began when from 1741 to 1835 Pope Benedict XIV, Pope Pius V and Pope Gregory XVI all agreed that the long condemned fixed-sun interpretation of Scripture was proven true by science so could no longer be forbidden in the Church. In other words, thereafter, every pope went along with their predecessors' contradiction of Holy Scripture entered into heresy. Pius X included, as he allowed his Pontifical Academy to promote the long held heresy condemned by all the Fathers. Once the supernatural creation was abandoned for a natural one, another long condemned heresy, the Nebular theory was never condemned, not even by Pius X, nothing could stop Modernism that caused millions of souls to be lost and the Church ending up as it is today, almost gone on Earth. Christianity is a supernatural religion and once it was dragged down to one based on the same theories of origins held by atheists, Catholic faith diminished slowly thereafter. the amount of Catholic doctrine that was changed by popes to accord with secular theories has to be seen to be believed.

    However, the Catholic Church makes a distinction between material and formal heresy. Material heresy means in effect ‘holding erroneous doctrines through no fault of their own’ due to inculpable ignorance, in this case they believed that the subject matter of Scripture had been resolved by science, so ‘is neither a crime nor a sin’ since the individual made the error in good faith.

    Now we know the Bible tells us that Satan is the 'Father of Lies.' Proof of that is how he fooled popes into allowing a heresy loose within the womb of the Church on the basis of an illusion, one that they would never admit to not even after Einstein in 1905 told the world the moving-sun of the Bible was never proven wrong. Pope Francis is just another 'material heretic' who told us God is not a magician, he cannot just wave a wand and make a finished universe appear. Francis is merely a result of the Modernism, a preference for a natural creation instead of a Supernatural Creation introduced into the Church since 1820, one every pope since has gone along with.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #59 on: August 16, 2024, 06:46:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: StAndrew on August 15, 2024, 10:23:57 PM
    I feel like this is borderline blasphemous: "Has the Church erred?" Would you ask if Our Lord erred? The Immaculate Bride of Christ doesn't err.

    I agree. The Church cannot err. So why is there no doctrine to deal with a potential heretical pope? There must be a good reason for this. Do you have any ideas? It seems like something of a mystery to me. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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