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Author Topic: Is Francis still pope?  (Read 13257 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Re: Is Francis still pope?
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2024, 06:05:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 05:57:37 PM
    If Bergolio is separated from the Church, then why is he still there, in the office of what the world assumes is the Papacy?

    Because people like you afford him authority that he doesn't have.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #31 on: August 14, 2024, 06:11:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 14, 2024, 06:05:04 PM
    Because people like you afford him authority that he doesn't have.

    Actually, people like me don't afford the Pope any authority, since a Pope's authority doesn't come from the laity. The Pope is the Pope, and it has nothing to do with me. I didn't elect him, and I can't depose him. But I can acknowledge that he is the Pope, because that's what Catholics do. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #32 on: August 15, 2024, 05:06:10 AM »
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    • "...Yes, the faithful may know well that he has committed a sin to which a censure is affixed by the Church, but this knowledge in no way qualifies them to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected..." - Fr. Wathen

    The argument is settled once the sedes admit that they are the ones who insist that it is a dogmatic fact that their knowledge of his sins does indeed qualify them to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline cassini

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #33 on: August 15, 2024, 06:07:37 AM »
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    • I have always understood that only the hierarchy can judge if a pope is no longer a pope. 
    Alas, today, with a hierarchy that agrees with the perversions of Pope Francis,
    that is not going to happen.
    However, maybe in the future, a pope will rule Francis was a heretic and thus an anti-pope,
    confirming some to say: 'told you so.'
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #34 on: August 15, 2024, 08:24:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 06:11:52 PM
    Actually, people like me don't afford the Pope any authority, since a Pope's authority doesn't come from the laity. The Pope is the Pope, and it has nothing to do with me. I didn't elect him, and I can't depose him. But I can acknowledge that he is the Pope, because that's what Catholics do.

    You should acknowledge Jorge Bergoglio is not pope based on Church teaching and that he is a public manifest formal heretic.  See the syllogism above.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #35 on: August 15, 2024, 08:26:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: cassini on August 15, 2024, 06:07:37 AM
    I have always understood that only the hierarchy can judge if a pope is no longer a pope.
    Alas, today, with a hierarchy that agrees with the perversions of Pope Francis,
    that is not going to happen.
    However, maybe in the future, a pope will rule Francis was a heretic and thus an anti-pope,
    confirming some to say: 'told you so.'

    Yes, well said Cassini.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #36 on: August 15, 2024, 08:28:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 15, 2024, 08:24:40 AM
    You should acknowledge Jorge Bergoglio is not pope based on Church teaching and that he is a public manifest formal heretic.  See the syllogism above.

    No where in the Traditional teachings of the Catholic Church is it said that the Catholic laity are required to judge as to whether or not a Pope is a manifest heretic. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #37 on: August 15, 2024, 08:29:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 15, 2024, 05:06:10 AM
    "...Yes, the faithful may know well that he has committed a sin to which a censure is affixed by the Church, but this knowledge in no way qualifies them to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected..." - Fr. Wathen

    The argument is settled once the sedes admit that they are the ones who insist that it is a dogmatic fact that their knowledge of his sins does indeed qualify them to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected.

    Making a juridical declaration is one thing, but making a private judgment in conscience is another.  The faithful may make a private judgment in conscience that Jorge Bergoglio is not pope because the evidence is sufficient that he is a public manifest formal heretic, which places him outside of the Church.  As a matter of fact, a positive and probable doubt that Jorge Bergoglio is a member of the Church is sufficient to withdraw obedience to him.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #38 on: August 15, 2024, 08:31:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 15, 2024, 08:28:10 AM
    No where in the Traditional teachings of the Catholic Church is it said that the Catholic laity are required to judge as to whether or not a Pope is a manifest heretic.

    Reason enlightened by Faith compels one to do so.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #39 on: August 15, 2024, 08:35:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 15, 2024, 08:31:14 AM
    Reason enlightened by Faith compels one to do so.

    That's what protestants say too. No need for Church teachings, which only get in the way. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #40 on: August 15, 2024, 08:40:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 15, 2024, 08:29:25 AM
    Making a juridical declaration is one thing, but making a private judgment in conscience is another.  The faithful may make a private judgment in conscience that Jorge Bergoglio is not pope because the evidence is sufficient that he is a public manifest formal heretic, which places him outside of the Church.  As a matter of fact, a positive and probable doubt that Jorge Bergoglio is a member of the Church is sufficient to withdraw obedience to him.
    But the sede's judgement is not private, it's quite public - to the point of changing the Church's liturgy to suit their own private judgement....."We say that that their private judgement in the matter must not be introduced into the Liturgy which is an official act of the Church. Their private judgement has no place in the sacred liturgy." - Fr. Wathen
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #41 on: August 15, 2024, 08:45:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: cassini on August 15, 2024, 06:07:37 AM
    I have always understood that only the hierarchy can judge if a pope is no longer a pope.
    Alas, today, with a hierarchy that agrees with the perversions of Pope Francis,
    that is not going to happen.
    However, maybe in the future, a pope will rule Francis was a heretic and thus an anti-pope,
    confirming some to say: 'told you so.'
    Actually, not even the hierarchy can judge the pope - who, per canon law, "is judged by no one." 

    And if there is a future pope that does not declare Francis was not the pope, what then? 

    And if a future pope does declare that Francis was NOT the pope, what then? The R&R will say; "well, we were wrong all along - so what." And the sedes will say; "ah ha! we were right all along," again, so what.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #42 on: August 15, 2024, 09:01:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 15, 2024, 08:35:47 AM
    That's what protestants say too. No need for Church teachings, which only get in the way.

    Did you not use reason enlightened by Faith to reject the Novus Ordo Missae?
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #43 on: August 15, 2024, 09:02:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 15, 2024, 08:40:14 AM
    But the sede's judgement is not private, it's quite public - to the point of changing the Church's liturgy to suit their own private judgement....."We say that that their private judgement in the matter must not be introduced into the Liturgy which is an official act of the Church. Their private judgement has no place in the sacred liturgy." - Fr. Wathen

    it is a private judgment in conscience made public, which is legitimate when the evidence is sufficient.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #44 on: August 15, 2024, 09:03:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 15, 2024, 08:45:59 AM
    Actually, not even the hierarchy can judge the pope - who, per canon law, "is judged by no one." 

    And if there is a future pope that does not declare Francis was not the pope, what then? 

    And if a future pope does declare that Francis was NOT the pope, what then? The R&R will say; "well, we were wrong all along - so what." And the sedes will say; "ah ha! we were right all along," again, so what.

    How can a future pope judge a previous pope when an equal cannot judge an equal?
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