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Author Topic: Is Francis still pope?  (Read 13231 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Is Francis still pope?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2024, 02:03:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr G on August 14, 2024, 01:59:51 PM
    Where in the Traditional teachings of the Church is your doctrine included, regarding a Non-Catholic holding office in the Catholic Church?

    Since there is no provision in the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church for a pope to lose his office due to heresy, of course you cannot cite it. 

    Since laymen believe that they can depose a pope, of course they believe that the office of the papacy isn't really any different than that of the lay state. Not special at all. A pope is just the same as any Catholic layman. Isn't that something that Vatican II wanted to stress as well? Blur the lines between clergy and laity? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #16 on: August 14, 2024, 02:25:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 02:03:35 PM
    Since there is no provision in the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church for a pope to lose his office due to heresy, of course you cannot cite it.

    Since laymen believe that they can depose a pope, of course they believe that the office of the papacy isn't really any different than that of the lay state. Not special at all. A pope is just the same as any Catholic layman. Isn't that something that Vatican II wanted to stress as well? Blur the lines between clergy and laity?

    Public heresy BY ITS VERY NATURE separates the heretic from the Church.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #17 on: August 14, 2024, 02:27:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 02:03:35 PM
    Since there is no provision in the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church for a pope to lose his office due to heresy, of course you cannot cite it.

    Since laymen believe that they can depose a pope, of course they believe that the office of the papacy isn't really any different than that of the lay state. Not special at all. A pope is just the same as any Catholic layman. Isn't that something that Vatican II wanted to stress as well? Blur the lines between clergy and laity?
    Since there is no provision in the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church for a non-Catholic to be pope, of course you cannot cite it.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #18 on: August 14, 2024, 02:32:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr G on August 14, 2024, 02:27:58 PM
    Since there is no provision in the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church for a non-Catholic to be pope, of course you cannot cite it.

    I'm not the one providing new doctrine on how a Pope can lose his office. Your doctrine is novel, since you cannot back it up with any source which says that a Pope will lose his office due to heresy. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #19 on: August 14, 2024, 04:00:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 02:32:09 PM
    I'm not the one providing new doctrine on how a Pope can lose his office. Your doctrine is novel, since you cannot back it up with any source which says that a Pope will lose his office due to heresy.

    Public heresy BY ITS VERY NATURE separates the heretic from the Church.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #20 on: August 14, 2024, 04:05:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 14, 2024, 04:00:59 PM
    Public heresy BY ITS VERY NATURE separates the heretic from the Church.

    Why wasn't it included, then, in the Catholic Church doctrine which states how a Pope can lose his office? There are only two reasons provided by the Catholic Church, as stubborn said, which are death or resignation. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #21 on: August 14, 2024, 04:12:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 04:05:25 PM
    Why wasn't it included, then, in the Catholic Church doctrine which states how a Pope can lose his office? There are only two reasons provided by the Catholic Church, as stubborn said, which are death or resignation.

    It doesn't need to.  "BY ITS VERY NATURE" applies to everyone without exception.



    https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi.html

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church.
    But Jorge Bergoglio has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy.
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio is separated from the Church.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #22 on: August 14, 2024, 04:16:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 14, 2024, 11:59:12 AM
    There are two ways for a pope to vacate his office; 1) his death and 2) his resignation.

    Anyone else remember this?
    What I remember is for hundreds of years, no Pope "retired."
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #23 on: August 14, 2024, 04:18:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 01:04:41 PM
    We were talking about the official ways, according to Tradition, that a pope can vacate his office. Your doctrine isn't included as being one of the ways in which a Pope can vacate his office, and never has been. Your doctrine is novel.
    Retirement is novel.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #24 on: August 14, 2024, 04:21:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 04:05:25 PM
    Why wasn't it included, then, in the Catholic Church doctrine which states how a Pope can lose his office? There are only two reasons provided by the Catholic Church, as stubborn said, which are death or resignation.
    Just so we are all on the same page, please cite the doctrine of which you speak.
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    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #25 on: August 14, 2024, 04:30:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 14, 2024, 12:19:56 PM
    No, obviously he wouldn't, because he hasn't.....and there ain't nuthin' anyone can do about it.
    The pope plays by his own rules.  Sorry looser.  He could actually murder every man womem and child and there ain't nuttin you can do.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #26 on: August 14, 2024, 05:49:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 02:32:09 PM
    I'm not the one providing new doctrine on how a Pope can lose his office. Your doctrine is novel, since you cannot back it up with any source which says that a Pope will lose his office due to heresy.
    Your doctrine is novel, since you cannot back it up with any source which says that a non-Catholic can be Pope. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #27 on: August 14, 2024, 05:57:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 14, 2024, 04:12:49 PM
    It doesn't need to.  "BY ITS VERY NATURE" applies to everyone without exception.



    https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi.html

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy per se separates the heretic from the Church.
    But Jorge Bergoglio has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy.
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio is separated from the Church.

    If Bergolio is separated from the Church, then why is he still there, in the office of what the world assumes is the Papacy? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #28 on: August 14, 2024, 05:59:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr G on August 14, 2024, 05:49:35 PM
    Your doctrine is novel, since you cannot back it up with any source which says that a non-Catholic can be Pope.

    I have no doctrine. Only the Catholic Church has doctrine. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #29 on: August 14, 2024, 06:01:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cera on August 14, 2024, 04:18:13 PM
    Retirement is novel.

    It seems that way, because it has so rarely been done. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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