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Author Topic: Is Ballet Immoral?  (Read 504 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Is Ballet Immoral?
« on: Yesterday at 11:11:52 PM »
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  • https://restlessheartmedia.substack.com/p/is-ballet-immoral?r=5bvou0&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action


    Quote
    In traditional Catholic moral theology, ballet is considered immoral due to its inherent violations of modesty and chastity, as it often involves revealing attire and provocative movements that serve as proximate occasions of sin for both performers and spectators. St. Alphonsus de Liguori (1696-1787), a Doctor of the Church and renowned moral theologian, explicitly warns against such activities in his writings, emphasizing the spiritual dangers they pose. In Advice to Parents, he advises, “Parents should prohibit their children from all games, which bring destruction on their families and on their own souls, and also dances, suggestive entertainment, and certain dangerous conversations and parties of pleasures.” This prohibition extends to ballet, which, as a form of theatrical dance, fosters sensuality and vanity, leading souls away from purity and toward moral ruin. Liguori’s perspective underscores that any form of dance that incites lust or immodesty is gravely sinful, aligning with his broader teachings on avoiding occasions of sin to preserve grace.
    Quote
    In Sermon XLVII: On Bad Thoughts, St. Alphonsus continues, ”You must, moreover, avoid dances with females and profane comedies: at least when the dances or comedies are immodest... Hence, they [parents] are the cause of all these evils, and shall be severely chastised by God for them.” Ballet’s movements and positions further exacerbate its immorality, as they frequently involve sensual poses, lifts, and extensions that mimic or evoke eroticism, making purity difficult to maintain. In dance forms like ballet, the body’s contortions serve vanity rather than virtue. Moral theologians in the Alphonsian tradition, such as Jean-Baptiste Bouvier (1783-1854), extend this to modern dances, declaring that “the German dance, vulgarly called Waltz, can never be permitted” due to its illicit contact and gestures—principles that apply even more stringently to ballet’s elaborate and often intimate choreography.
    Quote
    The immodesty of ballet attire is a central concern among traditional theologians, as it exposes the body in ways that contradict the virtue of temperance and the dignity of the human person. Fr. Théophile-Marie Ortolan (1869-1937), a theologian who contributed the article on “Danse” to the Dictionnaire de Théologie Catholique, echoes the consensus of moralists like Benedictus Henricus Merkelbach (1871-1942), condemning performing arts such as ballet for their use of “tight clothing, pastel or skin-colored apparel, and revealing or transparent dresses.” Merkelbach, in his Summa Theologiae Moralis, upholds Thomistic principles that prioritize moral order, viewing such displays as intrinsically disordered and likely to arouse impure thoughts. This attire alone, according to these theologians, constitutes a grave sin against modesty, compounded by the cultural context where ballet often prioritizes aesthetic allure over spiritual edification, thus scandalizing others and cooperating in their potential downfall.
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    Henry Davis, S.J. (1866-1952), in his influential Moral and Pastoral Theology, categorizes certain dances as “works of Satan,” associating them with temptations that undermine the Christian life and lead to spiritual death. Davis’s framework, rooted in casuistry and pastoral guidance, warns that theatrical performances, including ballet, introduce elements of indecency that erode moral fiber, such as suggestive jokes or displays that parallel the sensuality in dance. This view aligns with Merkelbach’s emphasis on conscience and moral principles, where participation in or attendance at ballet risks mortal sin if it deliberately exposes one to lustful occasions. Davis urges Catholics to avoid such spectacles, as they not only harm individual souls but also contribute to societal moral decay by normalizing immodesty under the guise of art.
    Quote
    Ultimately, traditional Catholic theologians like St. Alphonsus, Merkelbach, and Davis converge on the conclusion that ballet is immoral because it fails to safeguard chastity, instead promoting a worldly sensuality that opposes the Gospel’s call to holiness. As Ortolan notes, even well-intentioned dances become sinful when they involve “sensual twisting or vibration of the waist, no lifting of the legs or jumps that reveal what the dress covers.” In an era of widespread cultural acceptance, these teachings remind the faithful that true art must elevate the soul toward God, not ensnare it in earthly passions, making ballet a perilous pursuit that demands repentance and avoidance for the salvation of souls.
    Quote
    If you disagree, feel free to comment pointing me to a Catholic saint or traditional Catholic theologian explicitly arguing that ballet—as the classical theatrical dance form that emerged in the Renaissance courts and professionalized in the 17th–19th centuries—is morally good or permissible.


    Online Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 11:20:22 PM »
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  • The strange thing is that there are "Trads" who disagree with this.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 11:24:02 PM »
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  • The strange thing is that there are "Trads" who disagree with this.
    Yes I am mainly posting this for certain members of the forum who are lukewarm in this matter. I hope this will be a form of fraternal correction for those Catholics.

    Offline Justinian

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 04:38:59 AM »
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  • https://restlessheartmedia.substack.com/p/is-ballet-immoral?r=5bvou0&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action
    Don’t be insane puritan!! I did mention to a couple of trad priests that some extremists think ballet is immoral. The priests both said this is ridiculous. 

    Also there’s some nutter here in UK started a group called the anti dance group for Catholics’ and his priest had to speak to him about being like a Protestant. You’re not him are you??

    I have family in the entertainment industry, one a professional ballet dancer (all are practicing Catholics and very devout). 


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 05:21:30 AM »
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  • Don’t be insane puritan!! I did mention to a couple of trad priests that some extremists think ballet is immoral. The priests both said this is ridiculous.

    Also there’s some nutter here in UK started a group called the anti dance group for Catholics’ and his priest had to speak to him about being like a Protestant. You’re not him are you??

    I have family in the entertainment industry, one a professional ballet dancer (all are practicing Catholics and very devout).
    No wonder you think something immoral is moral, you are blinded by human respect. Your family cannot be devout if they practice an immoral dance, it's contradictory.

    Your so called trad priests, are they indult, sspx, resistance?


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 05:24:40 AM »
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  • Don’t be insane puritan!! I did mention to a couple of trad priests that some extremists think ballet is immoral. The priests both said this is ridiculous.

    Also there’s some nutter here in UK started a group called the anti dance group for Catholics’ and his priest had to speak to him about being like a Protestant. You’re not him are you??

    I have family in the entertainment industry, one a professional ballet dancer (all are practicing Catholics and very devout).
    You seem to have an emotional attachment to dancing, maybe ballet in particular? It may be clouding your judgement. Solid reasons were given by a Saint and several preV2 theologians for why it is immoral..

    From the OP:

    Quote
    If you disagree, feel free to comment pointing me to a Catholic saint or traditional Catholic theologian explicitly arguing that ballet—as the classical theatrical dance form that emerged in the Renaissance courts and professionalized in the 17th–19th centuries—is morally good or permissible.

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 05:37:40 AM »
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  • Hey guys Justinian is right!


    You incel losers need to get up to date!!!


    St. Alphonsus was only speaking for his time, but if he were alive today, he would totally be ok with ballet mini skirts!!!!


    Duuuuuuhhhh!!!!

    Offline Justinian

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 06:03:27 AM »
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  • Hey guys Justinian is right!


    You incel losers need to get up to date!!!


    St. Alphonsus was only speaking for his time, but if he were alive today, he would totally be ok with ballet mini extreme modernists also practice. Though in your case it’s reversed. 
    Hahaha 😝 Let's not go overboard here! No vulgar dancing; no dirty dancing! But waltzes and ballets and Honestly! Let's not go overboard here! No vulgar dancing; no dirty dancing! But waltzes and ballets and foxtrotting, etc. are so beautiful!  People are going to dance! David danced in front of the Ark of the Covenant,  remember? I for one cannot refrain from dancing when there is glorious music on in my kitchen, for heaven's sake! Don't become a purse -lipped "tsk-tsk"-er!  It does not please God and it will drive people away from the good, the true and the beautiful.  Saint Teresa of Avila said, "God, please spare me from one more crabby Saint"! 


    I got some responses from elderly relatives who remember pre Vatican 2:

    ‘Traditional dancing is not an issue at all. Some of what passes for dancing today is definitely an issue... and I do not mean ballet or jazz, etc. Go to a high school dance and the concerns will be reasonable.’

    And:

    ‘Must be closet Wesleyans, anything 'fun' is a sin to them, dancing included’

    ‘Ballet is a beautiful, elegant, highly disciplined, and upscale art form that involves countless others in theaters including musicians (often full symphonies), stage crews, set and costume designers, choreographers, professional make up artists, pointe shoe makers, patrons and supportive families, many benefactors, and it often becomes central in social circles involved in behind the scenes efforts during galas, and even in political diplomacy. I don’t look at it through the lens of an uptight extremest, a prude, or with a dirty mind. The human body is beautiful. There are many famous Catholic ballet dancers from wonderful Catholic families. I personally know many of them.’

    From another friend:

    ‘I love the pious story of our Lady s presentation and how she danced for God in the Holy of Holies, much as David danced before the Ark. Michal criticized his 'immodesty ' so God closed her womb.’

    So Mr Gubbins of the Kimmage variety…maybe book a trip to the Ballet for the next young lady you ask on a date 😉

    A time to cry and a time to laugh. A time to grieve and a time to dance. A time to scatter stones and a time to gather stones. A time to embrace and a time to turn away.’



    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 07:43:17 AM »
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  • You are why St. Paul commands women to be quiet in Church. Good grief, imagine being a protestant and having to listen to that ramble on a sunday!

    There are some rare exceptions when we see nakedness like Our Lord on the Cross, or Our Lady breast feeding Our Lord. But generally, the Church has been very strict about it, especially outside of these contexts.

    So the immodesty of ballet is clearly immoral, because it is totally unnecessary. For that reason, alone, and not as much the movements, it was right that the Church forbade Catholics from doing it.

    You go to an indult Mass, and indulters do not take modestly seriously at all.

    Yet a cursory glance at Catholic social norms anywhere in the world before VII shows that what indulters practice would not be regarded as right.

    Offline Justinian

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 07:54:10 AM »
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  • You are why St. Paul commands women to be quiet in Church. Good grief, imagine being a protestant and having to listen to that ramble on a sunday!

    There are some rare exceptions when we see nakedness like Our Lord on the Cross, or Our Lady breast feeding Our Lord. But generally, the Church has been very strict about it, especially outside of these contexts.

    So the immodesty of ballet is clearly immoral, because it is totally unnecessary. For that reason, alone, and not as much the movements, it was right that the Church forbade Catholics from doing it.

    You go to an indult Mass, and indulters do not take modestly seriously at all.

    Yet a cursory glance at Catholic social norms anywhere in the world before VII shows that what indulters practice would not be regarded as right.
    Ballet is in the same category as art and classical literature, it’s a celebration of beauty and art. Therefore it is certainly not prohibited to Catholics unless it is an occasion of sin for a particular individual. The same reason as classical literature is taught to Catholics even though some of it contains immorality. Would you ban teaching Shakespeare? 🤣I got this from an SSPX priest.

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 08:02:06 AM »
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  • Ballet is in the same category as art and classical literature, it’s a celebration of beauty and art. Therefore it is certainly not prohibited to Catholics unless it is an occasion of sin for a particular individual. The same reason as classical literature is taught to Catholics even though some of it contains immorality. Would you ban teaching Shakespeare? 🤣I got this from an SSPX priest.

    There is a qualitative difference here which you are missing.

    Ballet is CONSISTENTLY immodest. 

    Shakespeare is not. And all Classical literature for that matter.


    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #11 on: Today at 08:52:42 AM »
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  • There is a qualitative difference here which you are missing.

    Ballet is CONSISTENTLY immodest.

    Shakespeare is not. And all Classical literature for that matter.
    Well let us think about this.  

    Shakespeare was performed in its time by only male actors.  Young men played the part of women.  If Romeo  and Juliet were played that way now, that might be a very scandalous thing to see. People are very much influenced by what other people tell them to feel. 

    We need to recognize what is sinful in ourselves and act accordingly. 

    Should no alcohol be available, because some use it to sin gravely?  Worse sins come from the over consumption of alcohol than any one commits by watching a ballet.

    You know what is a problem, a person will say this saint said this about dancing therefore it is bad and then turn around and say don't listen to this saint on BoD because he made an error.  The Catholic Faith is consistent and constant.  We have to learn the difference between things everyone has to believe and the opinions shared by certain people that is not the same for everyone in the population (alcohol, arts, etc fall into this category)

    And before you decide that I don't have a clue you need to not assume my meanings, nothing I say is intended to go against God.  I am a fallible woman.  Ask questions to get better clarity.  I don't have time to dive deep in to the intellectualism of this.  I do know there are smart people out there that can and if we put aside our pride and hurt feelings we could certainly help each other become better Catholics.

    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Justinian

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #12 on: Today at 10:03:52 AM »
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  • Well let us think about this. 

    Shakespeare was performed in its time by only male actors.  Young men played the part of women.  If Romeo  and Juliet were played that way now, that might be a very scandalous thing to see. People are very much influenced by what other people tell them to feel. 

    We need to recognize what is sinful in ourselves and act accordingly. 

    Should no alcohol be available, because some use it to sin gravely?  Worse sins come from the over consumption of alcohol than any one commits by watching a ballet.

    You know what is a problem, a person will say this saint said this about dancing therefore it is bad and then turn around and say don't listen to this saint on BoD because he made an error.  The Catholic Faith is consistent and constant.  We have to learn the difference between things everyone has to believe and the opinions shared by certain people that is not the same for everyone in the population (alcohol, arts, etc fall into this category)

    And before you decide that I don't have a clue you need to not assume my meanings, nothing I say is intended to go against God.  I am a fallible woman.  Ask questions to get better clarity.  I don't have time to dive deep in to the intellectualism of this.  I do know there are smart people out there that can and if we put aside our pride and hurt feelings we could certainly help each other become better Catholics.
    Great analogy about alcohol. You’re absolutely right. I do notice the women on this forum are far more sensible and logical than the men (with notable exceptions). 

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #13 on: Today at 11:08:00 AM »
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  • The dancing is not the problem, so remove that aspect of the argument, it is the immodesty of the outfits and impure gestures that is the issue; if a dance contains immodesty or impure movements, then it is sinful, if it does not then it is fine. The Catholic Church has a minimum modesty standard, so compare whatever dance you want with the Catholic standard, and it either meets that standard or it does not. No amount of custom or excuse of "it is only art" can make something immoral to something moral.


    Some Directives on Christian Modesty – Our Lady of the Rosary Library
    The opinion which allows custom to dictate the question of modesty was refuted by Pope Pius XII in one short sentence:  “There always exists an absolute norm to be preserved.”

    Custom, of course, pays no attention to absolute norms; but, it is a follower of this false principle:  “… the majority cannot go wrong.”
    To say that “… modesty is a matter of custom” is just as wrong as to say that “… honesty is a matter of custom.”
    What about those who teach “What is customary does not affect us?”
    Pope Pius XII calls this application of an ancient principle to the virtue of modesty, “the most insidious of sophisms.”  He calls attention to the fact that some people use this sophism “…in order to brand as ‘old fashioned’ the rebellion of honest people against fashions they consider too bold.”
    The Pope’s pronouncements make no distinctions for various types of garments.  Pius XII states “…an unworthy, an indecent mode of dress has prevailed” without any distinction of place, “on beaches, in country resorts, on the streets, etc.”  (Aug. 29. 1954)

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Is Ballet Immoral?
    « Reply #14 on: Today at 12:38:16 PM »
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  • Thank you Mr G for that input.

    That suffices as my response to the slithering of the ladies above.