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Offline graceseeker

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In defense of the Jews (at least some)
« on: January 12, 2018, 04:00:10 PM »
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  • The Jewish religion is where the Catholic religion originated, so I wish people would stop bashing the Jews.. I just totally don't get it. So some Jews love money too much. So do some "Christians" so called.

    The Jews have just as much a chance of accepting Jesus as anyone else. If they don't they will go to Hell. So if anything we should pity them a little more and evangelize them..

    better to evangelize than to hate .. right? 

    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 04:11:12 PM »
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  • Most people don't bash Jews because of who they are but because of what they do. Do read "The Mystical Body of Christ and Reorganization of Society" by the Reverend Denis Fahey, which you can download here.

    https://archive.org/details/DenisFaheyTheMysticalBodyOfChristAndTheReorganizationOfSociety_201603

    Anything by E Michael Jones, who has plenty of interviews online, is also very informative

    Of course we should pity them and not hate them.
     


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #2 on: January 12, 2018, 04:17:50 PM »
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  • Jews are disproportionately represented as proponents of the most evil ideas and involved in the most evil institutions of our time: communism, feminism, secular humanism, film and televisions industry, etc.  When  a group is associated with evil like this, one can expect a negative reaction.

    I agree that praying for the conversion of Jews is important and I hope that everyone will do so.  I think, however, that dismissing any negative comments about Jews as "bashing" is an over-simplified approach.  
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #3 on: January 12, 2018, 05:03:59 PM »
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  • I see you posted in response to the comment on the thread URGENT MESSAGE

    Quote from: Mega-fin on January 07, 2018, 08:47:43 PM
    Quote
    Bigly?

    Ok, well no I haven’t looked into #Qanon but I’ll get behind Trump when he stops getting behind Israel.
    To which you responded

    another anti-Semite... please
    never did get the Jew bashing stuff
    not all Jews are the same just as not all Catholics are the same...

    You are confused about the words, in that you equate Jew with Semite.
    Of course all Jews are individuals, but the main issue here with the Jew in general is that whole group reject Jesus Christ as their saviour. THey are still waiting for a saviour, at least the religious ones.

    Besides, most Jews are European and have no Semitic blood running in their veins.

    WHereas Semites can be Catholic, "christian", Orthodox, Muslim, nonbelievers, even Jew.

    Jew is a religion, whereas Semitic is a race.

    It takes a bit of unlearning to do. The whole of society has been confused by the braiwashing received via the education system, the entertainment industry and by the television. BEst to stay away from all three to detox.

    Do the investigations.




    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 05:28:03 PM »
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  • That post from the other thread appears to equate withholding support from the state of Israel with anti-semitism.  That is an unreasonable position.  There are many good reasons that one might dislike or oppose the government of a country.  Personally, I think that Israel has several objectionable practices and policies.  It is unfair and illogical to automatically dismiss a political view as an irrational hatred of Jews.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 05:45:41 PM »
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  • I see you posted in response to the comment on the thread URGENT MESSAGE

    Quote from: Mega-fin on January 07, 2018, 08:47:43 PMTo which you responded

    another anti-Semite... please
    never did get the Jew bashing stuff
    not all Jews are the same just as not all Catholics are the same...

    You are confused about the words, in that you equate Jew with Semite.
    Of course all Jews are individuals, but the main issue here with the Jew in general is that whole group reject Jesus Christ as their saviour. THey are still waiting for a saviour, at least the religious ones.

    Besides, most Jews are European and have no Semitic blood running in their veins.

    WHereas Semites can be Catholic, "christian", Orthodox, Muslim, nonbelievers, even Jew.

    Jew is a religion, whereas Semitic is a race.

    It takes a bit of unlearning to do. The whole of society has been confused by the braiwashing received via the education system, the entertainment industry and by the television. BEst to stay away from all three to detox.

    Do the investigations.
    Missed this, thanks for the back up!  :cheers:

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 07:53:14 PM »
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  • I just started reading the book "Synagogue Rising" by Hugh Akins. It would be a good read for anyone who questions whether Catholics can defend Judaism.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Online Motorede

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 09:13:00 PM »
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  • The Jewish religion is where the Catholic religion originated, so I wish people would stop bashing the Jews.. I just totally don't get it. So some Jews love money too much. So do some "Christians" so called.

    The Jews have just as much a chance of accepting Jesus as anyone else. If they don't they will go to Hell. So if anything we should pity them a little more and evangelize them..

    better to evangelize than to hate .. right?
    You don't remember the phrase "perfidious Jews" used during the Good Friday Liturgical Action? Until modern times Catholics never complained about this description, which was written for our instruction when Catholic-minded authorities were in charge.  


    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #8 on: January 13, 2018, 02:03:15 AM »
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  • A quick synopsis of the disposition of the Jew, hence we are to have an aversion for, and be guarded against, them.

    The Lord tells us not to pray for Jews in Jeremias 11:9-15

    Jews are racially cursed due to the events in Matthew 27:25. Their offspring inherit the curse through the generations. It must be noted that converts to the Judaism have the same curse befall them, which they will pass down to their children. Only Baptism into Jesus Christ with water and spirit can lift the curse of the Jew.

    Jesus Christ tells us that Jews are the Synagogue of Satan in Apocalypse of St. John 2:9 and 3:9


    Jews are a false religion and a race. Firstly, Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Faith of Abraham, whereas, today's Judaism ruptured itself from Abraham by rejecting Christ. In rejecting Christ, they rejected the God of their fathers, hence they became the Synagogue of Satan (Rev 2:9 & 3:9). Secondly, Jesus Christ is of true Davidian blood, but the Jews lost that biological lineage after the Diaspora when they mixed with Khazars and, subsequently, some of the host population of European nations. Moreover, the Jews became a cursed race due to the events in Matthew 27:25, therefore, they could never have the same genealogy as Jesus Christ. It is due to Jews' racial curse that they are are driven to sow & promote subversion, heresy, discord, perversions (porn, faggotry, trannies), usury, war, murder (abortion, etc), atheism, feminism, scientism, naturalism, and the revolutionary spirit. Many of the Jews involved in the aforementioned war on Christ's Social Kingship are actually atheists, but despite their lack of belief in any "deity", they're still wired to pave the way for Antichrist by their deeds, and they manifest an innate drive to band together and still identify as Jews. The Jews are guided by legions of demons, which is why they disproportionately hold positions of strategic importance in private & pubic sectors, hence effecting the order of sin against God. Jews only make up 2% of the U.S. population, and only around 1/5 of one percent of the global population, but their adversarial impact on humanity is huge and not a random coincidence.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 06:48:07 AM »
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  • The Lord tells us not to pray for Jews in Jeremias 11:9-15
    You do not seem to understand the passage as the Church does, since praying for the conversion of Jews is part of Catholic liturgy:

    Oremus et pro perfidis Judæis: ut Deus et Dominus noster auferat velamen de cordibus eorum; ut et ipsi agnoscant Jesum Christum, Dominum nostrum. (Non respondetur 'Amen', nec dicitur 'Oremus', aut 'Flectamus genua', aut 'Levate', sed statim dicitur:) Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui etiam judaicam perfidiam a tua misericordia non repellis: exaudi preces nostras, quas pro illius populi obcæcatione deferimus; ut, agnita veritatis tuæ luce, quæ Christus est, a suis tenebris eruantur. Per eundem Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum Filium tuum, qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti, Deus: per omnia sæcula sæculorum. Amen

    Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 07:31:50 PM »
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  • You do not seem to understand the passage as the Church does, since praying for the conversion of Jews is part of Catholic liturgy:

    Oremus et pro perfidis Judæis: ut Deus et Dominus noster auferat velamen de cordibus eorum; ut et ipsi agnoscant Jesum Christum, Dominum nostrum. (Non respondetur 'Amen', nec dicitur 'Oremus', aut 'Flectamus genua', aut 'Levate', sed statim dicitur:) Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui etiam judaicam perfidiam a tua misericordia non repellis: exaudi preces nostras, quas pro illius populi obcæcatione deferimus; ut, agnita veritatis tuæ luce, quæ Christus est, a suis tenebris eruantur. Per eundem Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum Filium tuum, qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti, Deus: per omnia sæcula sæculorum. Amen

    Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.

    Yes, I'm aware of the Mass' Good Friday prayer for Jews. That doesn't mean it's obligatory for Catholics to pray for Jews. It's not ex cathedra. The Book of Jeremias is biblical canon. The Lord is clear that He will not hear the prayers for Jews. If the Church still decides to pray for them, that's fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean God will hear the prayers for the Jews, collectively.

    I still pray for the conversion of individual Jews, but not the Jewish people as a whole.

    St. John Chrysostom tells us:

    "[...] God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day He will say to those who sympathize with them., 'Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!' Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and, far from venerating the synagogue, hold it in hatred and aversion."
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #11 on: January 13, 2018, 08:15:36 PM »
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  • Yes, I'm aware of the Mass' Good Friday prayer for Jews. That doesn't mean it's obligatory for Catholics to pray for Jews. It's not ex cathedra. The Book of Jeremias is biblical canon. The Lord is clear that He will not hear the prayers for Jews. If the Church still decides to pray for them, that's fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean God will hear the prayers for the Jews, collectively.
    I still pray for the conversion of individual Jews, but not the Jewish people as a whole. 

    St. John Chrysostom tells us:

    "[...] God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day He will say to those who sympathize with them., 'Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!' Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and, far from venerating the synagogue, hold it in hatred and aversion."
    The liturgy of the Church is a better guide to what we ought to believe than your personal interpretation of Scripture.  There is a saying that expresses this Catholic principle: lex orandi, lex credendi   "the law of praying is the law of believing." 

    Other Saints took a different approach from St. John Chrysostom.  For example, St. Paul wrote (Romans 9:1-5)  

    [1] I speak the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost: [2] That I have great sadness, and continual sorrow in my heart. [3] For I wished myself to be an anathema from Christ, for my brethren, who are my kinsmen according to the flesh, [4] Who are Israelites, to whom belongeth the adoption as of children, and the glory, and the testament, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises: [5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    The Challoner commentary explains:
    [3] "Anathema": A curse. The apostle's concern and love for his countrymen the Jews was so great, that he was willing to suffer even an anathema, or curse, for their sake; or any evil that could come upon him, without his offending God.

    And St. Bernard of Clairvaux wrote: 
    The Jews are not to be persecuted, killed or even put to flight. Ask anyone who knows the Sacred Scriptures what he finds foretold of the Jews in the psalm. "Not for their destruction do I pray," it says. The Jews are for us the living words of Scripture, for they remind us always of what our Lord suffered. They are dispersed all over the world so that by expiating their crime they may be everywhere the living witnesses of our redemption. Hence the same psalm adds, "only let thy power disperse them." And so it is: dispersed they are. Under Christian princes they endure a hard captivity, but "they only wait for the time of their deliverance." Finally we are told by the Apostle that when the time is ripe all Israel shall be saved. But those who die before will remain in death.

     St. Bernard also wrote:  
    Is it not a far better triumph for the Church to convince and convert the Jews than to put them all to the sword? Has that prayer which the Church offers for the Jews, from the rising up of the sun to the going down thereof; that the veil may be taken from their hearts so that they may be led from the darkness of error into the light of truth, been instituted in vain? If she did not hope that they would believe and be converted, it would seem useless and vain for her to pray for them. But with the eye of mercy she considers how the Lord regards with favor him who renders good for evil and love for hatred.

    It looks like praying for the conversion of Jews was a daily practice in his time.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #12 on: January 13, 2018, 08:58:21 PM »
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  • The following saints and popes who spoke against the Jews far outnumber your defenders of Jews:



























    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #13 on: January 13, 2018, 09:43:31 PM »
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  • The following saints and popes who spoke against the Jews far outnumber your defenders of Jews:
    I suspect if we looked at all the quotes in context, we would find a general agreement.  There are not two sides among the Saints - one for and the other against Jews.  There are just different aspects of a complex issue.  Throwing a bunch of isolated quotes around is not a good way to learn the mind of the Church, especially concerning complex matters.

    Even some of the quotes you presented mentioned the conversion of Jews and none of the quotes said anything about it being wrong to pray for the conversion of Jews.  No matter how many bad things we may find to say about Jews, we ought to desire and pray for their conversion.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: In defense of the Jews (at least some)
    « Reply #14 on: January 14, 2018, 11:26:22 PM »
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  • I suspect if we looked at all the quotes in context, we would find a general agreement.  There are not two sides among the Saints - one for and the other against Jews.  There are just different aspects of a complex issue.  Throwing a bunch of isolated quotes around is not a good way to learn the mind of the Church, especially concerning complex matters.

    Even some of the quotes you presented mentioned the conversion of Jews and none of the quotes said anything about it being wrong to pray for the conversion of Jews.  No matter how many bad things we may find to say about Jews, we ought to desire and pray for their conversion.

    Here are some more teachings against the Jews by the saints:

    "It would be licit, according to custom, to hold the Jews in perpetual servitude because of their crime."
     ~ St. Thomas Aquinas


    "Crucifiers of Christ ought to be held in continual subjection."
    ~ Pope Innocent III


    "The Jews knew that Christ was the son of David. And even now they hope for His Coming. It is hidden from them that He has come, but it is hidden because they willed it so. For, not acknowledging Him on the cross, the knowledge of Him reigning in glory should not be theirs ... Why are the Jews hoping for what has already come, and not fearful for what is to come? For Our Lord Jesus Christ ... referred Himself as "the Stone" (Matthew xxi.44), that whoever stumbles upon it shall be bruised; but upon whom it shall fall, it will grind to powder ... Lying on the ground, it shakes whoever falls over it; coming from on high, it crushes the proud. The Jews have already been shaken by their previous stumble. What awaits them is to be crushed by His Coming."
     ~ St. Augustine


    The bottom line is your position that Catholics should pray for Jews is just as subjective as my position that we shouldn't pray for them as a collective group.

    Since the Church has no definitive application towards Jews in regards to whether or not we should pray for them, there can be no real fault in a Catholic relying on God's words in the Book of Jeremias (11:9-15). His words are clear that we shouldn't pray for Jews, and prayers for them won't be heard. The written text is objective reality and appears literal in meaning. The Church might interpret those verses differently, but there is no ex cathedra ruling making it obligatory for Catholics to pray for Jews. It is not part of Catholic dogma.

    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

     

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